What the Health? At the Movies with The Cancer Pod

Leah 0:00

Welcome to episode 17 of the cancer pod in the next three episodes. We're going to the movies today. We're reviewing what the health, which came out in 2017.

Tina 0:10

I'm Dr. Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say, I'm the science-y one.

Leah 0:14

And I'm Dr. Lee Sherman and I'm the cancer insider.

Tina 0:17

And we're two naturopathic doctors who do integrative cancer care.

Leah 0:20

but we're not your doctors.

Tina 0:22

This is for education, entertainment, and informational purposes only.

Leah 0:26

do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor.

Tina 0:31

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own.

Leah 0:37

Welcome to The Cancer Pod. Rolling.

Tina 0:41

quiet on the set. Rolling.

Leah 0:44

Rolling. And action. Okay, Tina.

Tina 0:58

Yeah.

Leah 0:58

it's brand new year and we're trying out a new format for this pod.

Tina 1:03

I like it. I'm excited about this.

Leah 1:05

I It's fun. we're going to be watching movies and talking to you about.

Tina 1:10

Yeah. And we're hoping to engage you. Either you' ve already seen it or you can watch it before we talk about.

Leah 1:15

Yeah, this should be good. So what we're doing for this first pod of the new year is we're going to talk about movies that actually we've had patients mentioned to us, and some of them, or one of them I'd already seen before. And we're just going to kind of talk about what's good and what's bad. You know what we agree with, what we don't, and just it's The Cancer Pod At The Movies

Tina 1:38

Okay. So our first movie to discuss and critique is What The Health.

Leah 1:44

So that movie, I definitely had patients who I would talk to the dietician would talk to about making diet and lifestyle changes. And it wasn't until they watched this movie that they kind of came to, you know, the realization that certain dietary changes might be helpful. And so I was really curious and I was like, I want to watch this movie. And I was really surprised at, at the film.

Tina 2:12

OKay. I'm going to admit to something. I don't watch any of these health documentaries, because it makes me squirm in my seat usually. And so over the years, and there's been some really popular ones. I don't watch them, but I am doing it for our podcast. And I squirmed in my seat with this one.

Leah 2:32

Yeah. So I find that a lot of these, they tend to be very like agenda and propaganda. And so, yeah, I mean like, well, you know, my thoughts on this film, what we should say is, what was it the Netflix description of the movie?

Tina 2:49

OKay, so the movie is found on Netflix, so it's free. You can watch it at your leisure, but-

Leah 2:53

Well, free if you subscribed to Netflix.

Tina 2:57

Right. There is an assumption there. Correct. All right. So they say, "This film examines the link between diet and disease and the billions of dollars at stake in the healthcare, pharmaceutical, and food industries."

Leah 3:10

Okay, so it's intriguing, right? Like you're like, oh, well that's, that sounds very intriguing. What the film is about is veganism.

Tina 3:18

Yes. Ultimately it's about veganism. Or can I say this? Ultimately it presents the case of why to become a vegan.

Leah 3:25

Right.

Tina 3:26

Okay. So we're agreed there.

Leah 3:28

Yes, of why they think you should become a vegan.

Tina 3:32

Right? So they have a message and then they build a film around their messaging.

Leah 3:36

Right. Yes. So, um, for anyone out there, who's curious veganism started, it was a movement that there are cultures there's societies, you know, that are based on not eating animal flesh for cultural and religious reasons.

Tina 3:54

But they would eat the products of the animals, like maybe milk or cheese or yogurt.

Leah 3:59

Eggs. Yeah, exactly.

Tina 4:01

But not the flesh of the animal. And that's what Vegetarianism was considered not eating the flesh. Veganism is nothing of the animal.

Leah 4:10

Correct. Not wearing the leather. Not, not even like having honey, even though these aren't necessarily. I mean, they're, they're making the honey anyways, the same way. Like a chicken is going to make an egg, whether or not you eat it. and so it came out though more as like an animal welfare issue.

Tina 4:26

For sure. Yes. Veganism arose from animal welfare. Yes. Not from health. Or any kind of health movement at that time.

Leah 4:33

Right. Okay. So that's kind of where we're going to start and.

Tina 4:37

although it did dovetail nicely with the whole idea of protein being bad for you. So I guess it was adopted by the health people, but not it wasn't introduced for health purposes. It was introduced as veganism for animal welfare.

Leah 4:49

I like that it was adopted as part of a health movement. So, um, I guess we let's just start with like the the parts that we would agree with these are our opinions, the good and the bad.

Tina 5:00

Yeah. So right out of the gates, I think there can be healthy vegans in the world. So just so we're clear, I don't say to people, you must become vegan to be healthy. But I will say you can be healthy as a vegan, so people choose to do that for animal welfare reasons or you know, whatever the reason is it's fine to do as long as they're responsible vegans.

Leah 5:19

And as long as they are eating healthfully, because I've also seen, and I ha I was an unhealthy vegetarian when I was a vegetarian, when I was in art school. I am an omnivore I'm plant-based omnivore, so I'm majority plants, but, um, you know, I've seen vegans who don't eat plants.

Tina 5:38

Yes, that's not going to work overtime.

Leah 5:41

Right. So, so I mean, we could do a whole episode on this, but it's, so it is very complicated, but you know, a plant-based vegan diet that's well-balanced, you know, totally fine.

Tina 5:53

Yes. It's the presence of the plants, not the lack of the meat that makes it healthy.

Leah 5:56

Exactly. Exactly. And I think, okay, so that'll lead us to the next part of our review, but what we're going to do is we're going to start with the part that we actually kind of agree with.

Tina 6:07

There was a few points I agreed with. One of the big ones is, and I think they did a good job at this- I wish it wasn't at the end of the whole documentary- I have a hard time calling it a documentary because it's more of a docu-drama.

Leah 6:20

Oh, my gosh. I was just going to say that.

Tina 6:21

Yeah. Cause it's just a little bit over the top and selective, and it's not really anyways call it what you want.

Leah 6:28

We're going, we're starting with the good part, Tina. Oknow

Tina 6:30

Well, yeah, right, right. Back to the positive. No, I, I agree that, the messaging from non-profits, whether it's the American Cancer Society or the American Diabetes Association, or Susan G Komen, I mean these hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue type places that have links to corporate America that include both pharmaceutical companies and large industrial agriculture companies...Yeah, that's not the best place to get your information. I agree with that. And I agree that they will temper some of the science because they're getting enough dollars to not speak on a topic or to, you know, at least muffle themselves because they don't want to endanger their donors and endanger the incoming revenue.

Leah 7:13

Right. It's like how you don't want really, you don't want like big corporate money involved in politics because it's going to influence policy. So, I mean, it's, it's very much that sort of thing. and that kind of also plays into, they brought up, um, checkoffs government check- offs.

Tina 7:29

Now, this was interesting to me cause I don't, I didn't know this part. I didn't know that there were direct lines. I mean, I knew big industry was influencing the messaging, but I didn't know how much the government, our government in the United States anyways, is directly influencing the messaging that was going out there. This is all news to me.

Leah 7:49

Yeah. So, the checkoff programs started like in the 1930s and it's to help with farmers, agriculture, by, researching and promoting, um, specific commodities. So there are checkoff programs for things like beef, dairy, soy, cotton, you know, like really like common types of,

Tina 8:09

yeah. And what are the checkoff program like? What does that entail? What's the net effect?

Leah 8:14

So what they do is they take a percentage of, you know, like a dollar per head of cattle or whatever, you know, they'll take a certain percentage of whatever is being produced. That money goes to the government to help to promote that product, whether it's through some, you know, doing additional research on the product or by actually coming out with an advertising campaign, like "Got milk?" or "Cotton, the fabric of our lives."

Tina 8:41

So all of that was from money that was pooled at the USDA or somewhere in our higher ups, in our government, from the farmers themselves to turn around and do basically with the dollars, and tell us on the receiving end, that "Milk, it does a body good."

Leah 8:56

Right. It's not only those big products like beef and dairy and eggs. It's also, um, things like lamb and honey. So, you know, there was a campaign for lamb. I don't know how many years ago. So, so that, I mean, that's like really interesting, what's being promoted, you know, and like their claim that a stuffed crust pizza was part of the dairy, checkoff. Like if that in fact is true, like that's pretty, that's pretty shocking.

Tina 9:24

Right. It's, it would be very subtle messaging that has nothing to do with actual science, but they are

Leah 9:31

it's more to promote the average. And I don't see that. Bad thing entirely. Like, I don't think it's bad to promote these products. I just think that in that way of just making these blanket flashy advertising campaigns, where it's not necessarily health first.

Tina 9:49

Well, I think it's bad because I it's whip sawing people's opinion. Like are eggs good or as bad? Is margarine good or is margarine bad? I mean, we've gone through these different renditions of what those messages are and come to find out. That's probably more dollar driven than science driven the entire time, but nobody knows that.

Leah 10:07

Right. And I didn't look to see like what exactly, what percentage of it was going towards research, you know, and what was going towards advertising. So that would be a good thing for me to look up. but, um, yeah, so definitely that would be something that I thought was, was good to kind of put out there. So people know that if you see an ad on TV about why you should be using a product without naming a specific product

Tina 10:29

Right. Like the almond commercials are out now or pistachios are out.

Leah 10:33

Exactly. Then, then that's most likely where it's coming from. And it'll say on the bottom, who gets paid by, you know, the Pistachio Association of America or

Tina 10:40

Yeah, which is fine again. but don't confuse advertising or uh, publicity with science. So that's not where you should get your nutrition information ultimately, anyways.

Leah 10:51

From a commercial,

Tina 10:52

I mean, we all fall prey to it because you know We all have those things in our heads now. Right. The other white meat.

Leah 10:58

Right. I mean, the Got Milk? one was huge. People will have it on t-shirts.

Tina 11:02

"Milk, it does, milk it does a body good." That one was catchy.

Leah 11:05

Yeah, no, they're really good.

Tina 11:07

The other part that I thought was interesting and scientifically kind of just, you know, like, wait a second, is that true? Because I think a lot of viewers probably caught it and thought, huh, was how Dr. Mills, Milton Mills talked about how plants are the ones that make proteins and yeah, he's kind of oversimplifying, but it is a truism. I mean, nitrogen from our atmosphere cause our atmosphere is mostly nitrogen is fixed and taken up by the roots or rhizomes of a plant and then it Gets integrated in with carbon and becomes an amino acid in the plant. So amino acids, the building block of proteins are built by plants, manufactured by plants, just like plants make, you know, cellulose and carbohydrates and things like that. They also make amino acids. And then it's true. I mean, whether you're eating a cow or any other ruminant, um, they're getting it from the plant. They're getting all their amino acids and their protein from the plant. They just reassemble it into muscle or milk or whatever. So I thought that was neat. I mean, in a geeky kind of way, like, oh, he's got a good point there.

Leah 12:13

No, but it is, yeah, it is true. Right? I mean, that's why you want your, your animal products to eat healthy as well.

Tina 12:20

Their native diet. rIght.

Leah 12:22

Their native diets. Yeah. So, I think this is a really good time for us to take a fast break and then we'll come back and we'll talk about what maybe we did not agree with.

Tina 12:31

Sounds good. See you on the other side.

Leah 12:44

Okay. We're back, we're back. And we're talking about what the health, which is a movie that is about veganism, I mean, it definitely has an agenda to convince the viewer that veganism is the only way to go.

Tina 12:58

Yes, that's it. So let's, let's talk about what we found not so likable. I'm going to put it as downright offensive. I really disliked the gore. Really disliked- I won't even call it gore. I'd call it blatant animal cruelty and I really, I don't know. I don't like it. I don't like cruelty in general cause I don't watch it on a screen. I don't watch blood on a screen. I don't like watching people suffer, but watching animals in such a blatant.

Leah 13:25

It's such a visceral response. And I must say they do say in the opening, you know, when the little rating comes up in the upper left corner on Netflix, it does say "gore," and I think "smoking" was the other one. It does not say animal cruelty, serving cigarettes to children in a frying pan, but we'll get to that. yeah, so it says gore and I think it says gore because gore's kind of titillating, right? I mean, people like gory movies, they like that kind of thing.

Tina 13:53

I guess.

Leah 13:54

This is like, it really evokes this visceral response to where like, you're like, I really don't want to watch this.

Tina 14:01

YEah, there is- I will warn people before they go watch this. There's some visuals in there that you can't get out of your head after you see it. I had to look away.

Leah 14:08

And a lot of these types of movies do that and it is true. There are practices in industrial farming that just are not, they're not ethical in any way and yes, those should be changed, but yeah, I don't think that little like "gore" in the upper left hand corner was, was enough-

Tina 14:26

Was enough warning, I Yeah, because I I want to, remove some of the images that are now in my head because I, um, you know, I don't need animals, so, you know, I get it, you know, I don't eat them.

Leah 14:37

you're vegetarian.

Tina 14:38

I'm a, I'm a vegetarian

Leah 14:39

But you're like, lacto, OVO

Tina 14:42

Yeah, and I'll, and I will eat fish. So, So, I'm really a pescatarian.

Leah 14:46

Pesco lacto-ovo

Tina 14:48

Pesco lacto OVO. If we must be super correct. Basically I don't eat things with feet.

Leah 14:54

Good thing those fish, evolved out of that.

Tina 14:56

That's right.

Leah 14:58

Okay. So, so, so that's really interesting. So you are a vegetarian and part of it is because of the the unethical practices.

Tina 15:06

Oh, yeah. Part of it's because I already know what's going on in large industrial places where they're processing chickens and pigs and such. And so there's, that's for sure part of it is animal welfare on a larger scale. But even if I could have a well raised grass fed, you know, locally grown, my neighbor kills their cattle. I don't really like it that much.

Leah 15:27

You've never, even before you were vegetarian, you never really liked meat.

Tina 15:31

Correct. My dad used to say I'm a cheap date because basically I just ordered pasta.

Leah 15:36

Okay. Okay. And I, on the other hand have always loved meat especially when I was a vegetarian, I used to have dreams about eating fried chicken. And I think it was just because I was a horrible vegetarian. I'm mostly a bread-attarian um,

Tina 15:49

long before you were a naturopath. Just for the record.

Leah 15:51

Oh yeah, no, this was like when I was like 18 and an art school, and before I realized that gluten doesn't like So anyways, but yes, so, and I love animals. My dream is to have land with animals. You know,

Tina 16:07

Well, and by the time we get to the point in the movie where they are showing animal cruelty and they do it over and over and it's way over done in my opinion. I mean, it's not just like a shot once to make their point, in context. it goes along with the tactic of the entire movie that is basically to move you to the point where your emotions have now shut off your brain.

Leah 16:28

Right.

Tina 16:29

It's part of the whole plan.

Leah 16:30

Right. The whole, there, there are like musical, like swellings. I mean the whole movie is very manipulative and it's really obvious to us. I would say, let's say it's obvious to us because I think, I mean, it worked right. I mean, it moved some of my patients to actually adopt a plant-based diet. Did they become totally vegan? I think one of them did initially and then was like, oh no, I need, you know, I need to do this in moderation. And so they were more plant-based but it does, you know, it does open people's eyes, but it's like hitting someone over the head with the frying pan.

Tina 17:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, yeah, Just just from the very opening, it basically presents a problem and implies a conspiracy, and kind of goes from there. It's kind of sets the tone and juxtaposes some footage that is very inflammatory. Let's talk about the oversimplifications.

Leah 17:22

Okay. So You know, they have experts, right? They have these experts that are these doctors that this isn't their only movie right? Like you can find these doctors listed on IMDB, which is that movie database. and so like one of the doctors like it, actually, when I Googled him, the first thing that came up was like his name and then it said film actor, and he's not, he's a chiropractor. And he owns a clinic that is a very well known clinic, but um... They start talking about the science of it. And they, like you said, they oversimplify it and they leave out a lot of information that also applies to what they're talking about.

Tina 17:57

Yes. because veganism is their agenda. They're going to go on and on about what animal flesh does and animal products, not just flesh, eggs were demonized in this movie. Milk was completely tried to try to make it cringe.

Leah 18:12

Oh, oh God like that. Yes. That, that comparison, you know, like what's in your milk? And I'm not a milk drinker. I've always kind of found milk gross just because I grew up in a country where it wasn't pasteurized, it was served warm, it was thick. You got a little cube of sugar next to it.

Tina 18:31

Because it was so unpalatable?

Leah 18:34

To an American kid's palate, yes. Yes. I'm sure for people who grew up on a farm, it is the best thing in the world that they've tasted. But, um, so yeah, so what they're, they're demonizing saturated fat

Tina 18:46

Yes, in every form.

Leah 18:49

In every form. And so like they go after...

Tina 18:51

And cholesterol

Leah 18:52

and cholesterol. So they go after eggs, and eggs, yes, they do have cholesterol. They have other nutrients as well. And they have 1.5 grams of saturated fat. So that really isn't a lot in the big picture, but they're just, they don't care like to them saturated fat is the cause of all of the health evils in the world.

Tina 19:14

Yes. Everything. And I think that's been disproven in the actual medical literature.

Leah 19:21

And I mean, I, it is a player.

Tina 19:23

yes.

Leah 19:24

It's a player, but when they fail to mention trans fats, Yeah. which there's no question that trans fats, which is found in like, processed foods. So like, like packaged pastries and, this hydrogenated fats, Yes. As soon as the word "hydrogenated" appears before anything it's it's at the trans fat. So hydrogenated Palm oil, hydrogenated, peanut oil, hydrogenated, soybean oil. It doesn't matter says that, then it's been altered to be a trans fat. For the most part, trans fats do not occur in nature, they're man made. So that, to me, the fact that they never mentioned the role of trans fats, they never mentioned the role of refined sugars. They talk about carbohydrates all the time and they never specify between a simple and a complex carbohydrate.

Tina 20:12

That's huge because we know... one carbohydrates, there's only three macronutrients. Carbohydrates is one of three. So we have carbohydrates, fats and proteins. You need some carbohydrates. They're the good ones that are in the vegetables, but they never differentiate between that and simple sugar. Right. And so that is very problematic. Remember. They had that scene where they talked about the 1940s and this weird diet that was introduced and reversed all...

Leah 20:39

Fruit diet. Yeah.

Tina 20:41

Yeah, And they actually showed table sugar as more nutritious than anything from an animal.

Leah 20:45

Yeah, no, I mean,

Tina 20:46

Just for the record. That's an untruth. Like that's a blatant untruth. There's nothing in table sugar that's going to be more sustainable for your health than what you're going to find in a piece of meat. And again, this is coming from one who is a vegetarian. It's not that I think you need meat to survive, certainly, but that's an

Leah 21:03

Yeah. I think the other thing that we both found incredibly amusing was when the doctor was talking about how you could get, all the protein you need from eating vegetables and he, they show a slide of, a bowl of brown rice, and a bowl of broccoli.

Tina 21:20

With a plus sign between them.

Leah 21:21

With a plus sign between them, So over the, the rice, it says 50 grams, meaning protein and over the broccoli, it's 30 grams of protein. And so together that gets you 80 grams of protein, and it's supposed to be like a 2000 calorie a day diet. So if you just quickly like do the math in order to get 50 grams of protein from brown rice alone, you have to eat 10 cups of brown rice.

Tina 21:47

That's a lot of rice.

Leah 21:48

In a day, it's a lot of rice. And as anyone who studied nutrition knows that's not a complete protein.

Tina 21:54

right.

Leah 21:55

It needs to be paired with like a bean or, you know, legume of

Tina 21:58

In all fairness, they say that that's a bunch of bunk with complete protein idea.

Leah 22:03

And that I part I missed.

Tina 22:05

Yeah.

Leah 22:05

I was busy raging about something else.

Tina 22:07

Yeah. Yeah. They, say that that's not true. It is true in that. This is why traditional cultures will often put rice and beans together because the essential amino acids that are found in each one of those, you know, we only have so many essential amino acids. And so the number of essential amino acids in the rice and the bean put together, You get all eight essential amino acids.

Leah 22:25

You don't have to have them in the same meal. No, but you have to have them in your diet. So by them showing the broccoli. So for broccoli, you need 10 cups of broccoli to get to 30 grams of protein because each cup of broccoli is about three grams of protein. So for anyone who says, oh, you can get as much protein from broccoli as you can from a serving of meat. Sure. You can, but can you really, in one sitting like, can you really eat that much broccoli and rice? So basically you have to have 20 cups of food. if you were to do this and that just seem, I mean,

Tina 23:00

well, and I will say this, if you are a good vegan, the volume of food you need to eat in a day is a larger volume of food than an omnivore has to eat to get all the nutrients in because the plants take up more space and have less protein. So, you know, like your salad bowl is in a small bowl, it should be a lbowl with nuts and seeds on it. And like the actual volume of food is larger, which sounds good. I mean, most of us like to eat, so it should be a blessing, right? Like, oh, I got to eat more.

Leah 23:29

But you might actually get full because fiber is filling, right? You, you have fiber in your diet, you know? So the things that are super filling are like fiber and fat, those kind of satisfy that need to feel full. And so you might not get through all 20 cups of your rice and broccoli. So, so that was one thing that was definitely, um,

Tina 23:48

Yeah,

Leah 23:49

kind of oversimplified.

Tina 23:50

Oversimplified for sure.

Leah 23:52

So, and then, oh, you actually know my, my favorite part, which was really disturbing was the, um, the discussion on how you could take. Drops a vegan blood and put it in a Petri dish with prostate cancer cells. what did he say? Like you got suppression of the prostate cancer cell growth in vitro, which means in a Petri dish, which means not in a human it's in a lab. And so Blood with cancer cells. Yeah. You know.

Tina 24:21

I spent so little time on, in vitro studies because such nonsense that,

Leah 24:25

We talk about that. And we talk about that in other episodes. Like if you see something where like a supplement has shown to kill cancer, like this herb has shown to kill cancer in vitro, don't be taking that to your doctor because your doctor is going to be like, that's not a human study that doesn't show it's going to be the same. you know,

Tina 24:43

So, so that oversimplification of taking vegan blood in a Petri dish and saying, oh, you know, the cancer was less viable. Because we are steeped in medicine and science, then we know that an in vitro study is not something that justifies any kind of recommendation in our clinical opinion. Right. Nor would it with any doctor, but this is the part that kind of makes me squirm in my seat. I also know that's going to land really well on other people's ears who don't have any scientific background, and that manipulation-

Leah 25:12

No, they're going to hear like vegan blood cancer.

Tina 25:15

Yeah. That's basically it. Yeah, they gave the visual very simple visual that brought home the point that vegan blood leads to cancer not being viable. I mean, they really, they showed it and they show it in such a way that I feel like the, the sandwiching between other points that they're making is very calculated.

Leah 25:33

Yeah, the editing of the whole thing was, was incredibly, um, like you said, well calculated. Oh, one thing that I did find, Of them like kind of like, oh, I guess omissions was, they show this closeup of a, the poultry and prostate cancer study. And so they kind of zoom in on the page and then they blur out the rest of the the copy and they just focus on the one part that talks about how men with high prognostic risk and a high poultry intake had a four-fold increased risk of recurrence or progression of prostate cancer. And so I went back and rewound it. And I paused it because I had looked for the study that they referred to and realize that they left something out. If you read the conclusion from this article.

Tina 26:19

From the very article. that they put up on the screen.

Leah 26:20

Yeah, I did a screenshot.

Tina 26:22

Yeah.

Leah 26:22

It says our results suggest that the post diagnostic consumption. So after you've been diagnosed with prostate cancer, eating processed or unprocessed red meat, fish, or skinless poultry is not associated with prostate cancer recurrence or progression, but they did say whereas consumption of eggs and poultry with skin would be the issue. I mean, so that's huge and that they have it up on the screen. And if you blink you miss it.

Tina 26:52

Of course, yes. So they, they highlight what they, what they want you to take out of that and they oversimplified it. So that's not surprising. And this is makes me squirm in my seat because I know that they're doing a selective messaging because it's very clear in the literature that the fatty acid choline encourages prostate cancers to grow and choline from chicken skins and from eggs is something that That is one thing that I asked my patients with prostate cancer to remove from their diet, because it's kind of adding fuel to the metabolic fire of prostate cancer. So that truism is in there, but of course they oversimplify it.

Leah 27:29

And that's the part that is frustrating that they're not actually presenting what that paper was about.

Tina 27:35

Right. You don't have to remove every type of animal product, but you do need to remove those that are choline rich. So that's different.

Leah 27:42

So, and then I think when he shows up to three organizations, he calls, right? He calls these organizations, tries to find out why on their website they are promoting these certain foods when they've been shown to be cancer causing. And he's talking to cancer information specialist, you know, at the American Cancer Society or at Komen, or, you know, he talks to like the customer service person at the American Diabetes Association. And so when they honestly say, I don't know, They don't know because they're the ones who are supposed to like direct you to, oh, here's a program for exercise for diabetes, or this is a way you can get a ride to your cancer center. So they don't know what's on the website or like, or why it's on the website and it's not, they're not the decision makers. And so he's like, this is a conspiracy. Well, no, it's not. You're talking to the wrong people.

Tina 28:38

right, Right. And the one person he did talk to that was an authority, the uh, the scientific officer, he did talk to him, but he was using, there was a few things he did. I mean, it was clearly gotcha. Journalism. And the gentleman at the top knows that he's on the receiving end with a camera and an interview. Who's trying to do a gotcha interview. There is no, there's no good way to handle that except to walk out. So making him look highly suspect because he wouldn't answer the diet connection. That was the only scene where he talked to somebody with some authority and it was, you know, it's legit. The guy was kind of between a rock and a hard place on making medical claims on behalf of the American Diabetes Association, because American Diabetes Association really doesn't take a strong stand on diet. I'm not saying that's right. I think that that's kind of shady and involves a lot of money, but I felt for the poor guy getting interviewed, personally.

Leah 29:30

Oh, totally.

Tina 29:31

Yeah,

Leah 29:31

But he saw right through it, which, you know-

Tina 29:33

Which meant he had to get up and leave, which made him, you know, which made for good footage.

Leah 29:38

Another, um, there was, I'm the one who's really picking this movie apart? It really bothered me. Um, when the movie first starts, they talk about how like meat and saturated fat, those are group 1 carcinogens.

Tina 29:53

Oh yeah.

Leah 29:56

You know, they compare it to cigarette smoking and that's when you have the scene with the mom is like frying up cigarettes in a pan and serving her children, you know, again, that's like an evoking, some sort of emotion, like a visceral response. And, you know, he compares it to cigarettes and plutonium that those also are group 1 And then he never tells you what a group 1 carcinogen is. But

Tina 30:22

you're going to tell us right now, aren't you.

Leah 30:24

Once I find it in my notes, I am, cause I had to write it down. You think I memorize this stuff? Okay. So the International Agency for Research on Cancer and the US National Toxicology program have come up with lists of things that have been shown at different levels to potentially be, you know, cancer causing. So a group 1 carcinogen has been shown to be carcinogenic, cancer causing, to humans.

Tina 30:53

Okay.

Leah 30:54

It's not dose specific. So it's not exposure specific, so it's not like eating one piece of bacon is equivalent to an exposure to plutonium.

Tina 31:04

Right. Yeah. So I see what you're saying. So what's lacking in that list is dose.

Leah 31:09

Right. And then those organizations have actually said that this is not to be used as medical advice. So this is information. So there are different groups. And so the next group would be, group 2A is the next group that would say, you know, these are probably carcinogenic, you know, and then it kind of goes from there, like, to be less and less carcinogenic. But yeah, that, that first group, it's not like, like I said, it's, it's dose dependent. It's not like, just because you have an egg... an egg.

Tina 31:38

So. They're

Leah 31:38

making the equivalent of an egg to a cigarette.

Tina 31:41

The group 1 carcinogen that is listed is specifically processed meats, not meat.

Leah 31:47

Right. Process meat, right? Processed meat and not eggs, even though he does later say something like, like one egg is equivalent to smoking five cigarettes a day, like, whatever.

Tina 31:59

So this is where the extrapolation gets out of hand, right? Like one eggs are never mentioned as anything to do with carcinogens.

Leah 32:06

No

Tina 32:08

So, so this is where the visuals and the extrapolation gets out of hand because it's specifically processed meat, with nitrogen compounds that are known to cause cancer.

Leah 32:19

Right.

Tina 32:19

Yeah. and so there's no, there's no, the extrapolation of like saying a hotdog is the equivalent of an egg is is part of the problem.

Leah 32:26

And that an egg is equivalent to a cigarette.

Tina 32:29

And an egg is equivalent to a cigarette. Somehow this all just gets talked about as if in your mind, you're supposed to associate them all as equivalents.

Leah 32:35

Right.

Tina 32:36

And I took issue with the fact that processed meat, he listed some things that are simply canned, like canned tuna, canned salmon. I don't think that qualifies as being a processed meat product.

Leah 32:47

Because if you read the ingredients, it's often tuna and, you know, water or maybe oil.

Tina 32:54

Yeah.

Leah 32:54

Sometimes it's soybean oil and sometimes it's olive oil,

Tina 32:57

Yeah. And now I will admit some cans have B PA in their lining and that's a bad thing, and that is carcinogenic, but most tuna cans don't. And so this is, this goes into the whole, like both over-simplification and extrapolation to say, processed food, processed food. And then they list, they point at it and say on the American cancer society or one of their websites, they put canned tunas And canned salmon as something they recommended.

Leah 33:22

Yeah. So, and then they're talking to a, uh, basically a receptionist.

Tina 33:26

So, this is when you know there's no real interest in truth in this show. This is like, okay, we're just going to slam you with select factoids that prove our point, which is ultimately to eat vegan.

Leah 33:37

Right. And so speaking of truth or lack thereof is that they don't give the complete picture of the risk factors for diabetes.

Tina 33:45

Oh, I know, bothersome.

Leah 33:48

According to them, it's saturated fat.

Tina 33:50

Oh, yeah, they, they don't just say it's saturated fat. They say it's, we're completely misled if we think it's sugar.

Leah 33:56

Right.

Tina 33:56

Well, that's ridiculous. No, we're not. Of course it's sugar. Okay. I'm going to go to a biochemical truism. It's a truism that when you take a cell, any cells and you slam them over and over and over with something. Let's just say you eat a lot of sugar in your diet and you're constantly have this high glucose your pancreas and your cells are having to respond to insulin and let the sugar in. They're going to stop letting the sugar in. And that is where the insulin resistance comes in. The glucose no longer is able to go into the cells because at some point the cells have to protect themselves. But that's true for any receptor that's being expressed in the cell membrane. If you go knocking on that cell, telling it to do the same thing over and over. In excess, the cell will respond by saying, did I have a thousand doors to let that glucose in? I'm going to have to lower that down to 200, because you're overwhelming me. And that has, this is a biochemical truism of receptors on cells in general, where it will self-regulate according to its environment outside. So I'm saying this because of course too much sugar causes diabetes. This is to say, otherwise is

Leah 35:02

Yeah, no, they're the whole, that whole presentation. Yeah. we take another break? Let's let's take another break and we'll come back and compose ourselves.

Tina 35:13

Oh, yeah, I gotta calm down.

Leah 35:16

All right.

Tina 35:16

All right.

Leah 35:17

back. All right, Tina. So in conclusion, so we we've been talking about what the health, which is a. A docu-drama that we watched on Netflix and I got to say overall, like I do not like this movie. think it has valid points,

Tina 35:47

mixed in with.

Leah 35:49

in with basically propaganda.

Tina 35:51

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like they use some really base tactics to drive their. Message home that was completely not necessary. I mean, again, you know, whenever someone, I mean, it's fine to tug on the heartstrings. I know the music has to be set and the visuals have to be appropriate, but that's not what they did. It was like way, it was more crass than that in my mind, it made you either you make you grossed out or angry enough to completely stop thinking and just be led by the nose.

Leah 36:27

Oh, it made me angry, but not for the, not for the reasons they want to be angry though. They made me angry at them. because of what we, what we just talked about. So,

Tina 36:40

So can I say this

Leah 36:41

Yeah

Tina 36:42

eat a lot of plants. Okay. So the one thing that I want to say that, and you said you started with this, your patients come to you and they're like, oh, I changed the way I'm eating. Okay. So. I'm not into the means that they got there because I don't think this is something I would ever recommend people to watch, but it did. The net effect was good. They got out ate more vegetables.

Leah 37:03

Exactly. Exactly. And that, that was when I watched it. And I don't remember my response to the next time I saw this one patient who was like, oh, did you watch it? And I was like, I did. And I probably spun it and was like, I'm so glad that you are eating more vegetables. I probably said something like that. Cause I wasn't gonna be like. That movie was full of

Tina 37:22

We're gonna have to bleep you.,

Leah 37:23

got Um, yeah. So, Because in honor of the bowl of broccoli, let's do a broccoli rating scale.

Tina 37:31

I love this. So, so five broccoli is a high recommendation.

Leah 37:35

High recommendation.

Tina 37:36

Okay. How many broccoli did.

Leah 37:38

I'm giving it, oh, I so want to.

Tina 37:41

the broccoli in half?

Leah 37:42

Yeah, I know. I, so I so want to give it an empty bowl of broccoli. Um, but it did have some points that I think people would benefit being aware of such as like the agricultural and you know, government influence. So yeah, I'm going to give it half a piece of broccoli.

Tina 38:02

I think I'm with you on that. I mean, I might, I don't know if I was feeling generous. I might give it one, but the more I think about it and the more those images come up in my mind when I don't want to be thinking about it, the angry I get at them for putting them there in my head.

Leah 38:14

Yeah, I was going to go with one and then you said that you could do a half

Tina 38:17

Yeah. You're like as little as I can give them, CAn I brown, can I make it brown and floppy? Yellow the broccoli?

Leah 38:26

I'm giving it one over cooked, boiled, and then roasted.

Tina 38:32

Oh, God, sounds disgusting

Leah 38:33

oh, no. Yeah. I mean like roasted towards blackened, like I'm not really happy with that broccoli in any way. There's no nutritional value,

Tina 38:41

A completely unedible piece of proccoli.

Leah 38:44

All right. So, so we're going to continue with this for the rest of the pod. We've got a couple more movies coming our next movie, which I think it'd be really fun if people watch it in preparation for

Tina 38:56

I agree. Yes. are we going to announce it?

Leah 38:59

Yeah. Yeah, of course. We're going to announce it.

Tina 39:01

In Defense of Food. In

Leah 39:03

Defense of Food.

Tina 39:04

In Defense of Food.

Leah 39:05

So it's based on a book by Michael Pollan, who is a writer. He's an author, New York Times bestselling author. So. Yeah, that's going to be our next movie. It is available on, I watched it through because I have a library card. And so there's an app called Kanopy, starting with a K, K A N O P Y.

Tina 39:27

Oh, is that what that was? I saw that And I didn't know what it was.

Leah 39:30

yeah. So Kanopy is, um, a way that you can rent movies with using your library card. I think it's also on Amazon prime, but you watched it. On

Tina 39:39

Apple TV. I rented

Leah 39:40

it. TV. You rented it. Yeah. So you can rent it on Amazon Prime as well, or

Tina 39:45

And this is in Michael Pollan. I think we're saying his name, right?

Leah 39:48

I think so.

Tina 39:49

In any case, he wrote a lot of the New York times bestsellers that people might be aware of. Like Omnivore's Dilemma, the botany of desire. And of course the book by the same name in defense of food. he's

Leah 40:00

not read. I haven't read any of his books.

Tina 40:02

excellent writer. Omnivore's dilemma got a little long for me because I was like, Okay. got it. But, um, other than that, other than, you know, kind of, you know, hammering home the message a little longer than I'd like, he's, uh, he's a great storyteller and a great writer. And anyways, Yeah.

Leah 40:17

Yeah. So, so we're going to, we're going to keep this going in the new year.

Tina 40:21

Yeah. So join us. Why pre watch it? And then when we talk about it, you'll, you'll get involved. Maybe we can do one of these lives someday. Would That be cool? And we

Leah 40:28

That would be cool. Oh, but you know what, but definitely leave, leave comments on our Instagram, like, let us know, send us messages, let us know if you do watch this movie, let us know what you think.

Tina 40:37

or if you have questions, like, is that even true? What was in the movie? And then we can talk.

Leah 40:42

Cause we didn't bring up all, everything.

Tina 40:44

No,

Leah 40:44

we had with the movie.

Tina 40:46

it would have been too long.

Leah 40:47

Right. And just, I just want to put it out there. We are not anti-vegan.

Tina 40:51

Yeah. definitely not anti vegan. You can be a responsible and perfectly healthy vegan. And if that's your jam, then go with it.

Leah 40:57

Yeah. So on that note, I'm Dr. Leah Sherman,

Tina 41:02

and I'm Dr. Tina Kaczor

Leah 41:04

and this is The Cancer Pod.

Tina 41:05

until next time!.