Who's in Your Pod? Amy Rothenberg, ND: The Naturopathic Doctor

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Welcome to the cancer pod.

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In this episode, we're talking with Dr.

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Amy Rothenberg, naturopathic physician, author advocate, teacher, and cancer survivor.

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She has a new book out.

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You finish treatment.

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Now what a field guide for cancer survivors.

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So stay tuned for some laughter.

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Some lessons.

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And ultimately some inspiration.

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I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the science-y one

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and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside

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And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care

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But we're not your doctors

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This is for education entertainment and informational purposes only

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do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor

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The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own

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Welcome to the cancer pod

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Hey, Tina.

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Hi, Leah.

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How goes is it today?

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Don't you know what today is?

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Yes, it's our anniversary.

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happy anniversary, honey.

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Yeah, darling, happy anniversary.

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we, we got each other, an interview.

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We did.

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We're gonna celebrate, this is our first interview.

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Yep.

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Yeah.

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We're celebrating our one year anniversary and I think this is our 40 something ish episode.

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Yeah.

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I've lost count.

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Yeah.

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But, um, cuz there's so many.

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But yeah, we're, we're testing out a new format for the new fiscal year.

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I don't know what you call

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this, but for our you need a, you need, you need to have some kind of fiscal movement to have a fiscal year.

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We don't have any, we don't have fiscals.

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we're free we're fiscal list anyways.

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Um,

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What makes it super exciting is that we do have an interview

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today.

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Yeah.

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So, so give us feedback.

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I'm gonna say that right outta the gates instead of winning to the end, give us feedback.

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Tell us what you like and tell us if this is something you want us to do a lot more of today.

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We have Dr.

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Amy Rothenberg, who is a naturopathic physician.

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She's an author, she's a lecturer.

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She's a homeopath.

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She is a powerhouse in our profession.

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Everyone within naturopathic medicine knows who Amy is.

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She was instrumental.

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and getting naturopathic physicians licensed in the state of Massachusetts, our latest.

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Conquest and our licensure efforts across the nation.

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So Amy is joining us today and she's also a survivor of cancer.

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And we're gonna talk to her today about the ins and outs of that.

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What it's like to be a naturopathic physician who then goes on to get cancer.

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And that was back in 2014.

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So we're gonna talk about how you're doing and, uh, and a book.

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There is a book coming out.

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So we're gonna talk about that a little bit too.

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So Amy

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welcome.

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Thank you so much for having me and happy anniversary.

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And for those of you who are listening to this, because you know me and I've shared this link with you, you need to go and check out the previous episodes.

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They're so interesting and filled with so much actionable information.

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And these two doctors, Leia and Tina are very funny and personable.

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Super useful information.

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So please go back and listen to previously recorded podcasts.

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Well, thanks for that endorsement.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

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And it means a lot coming from you to be perfectly honest.

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I mean, you know, you, you are a mover and a shaker and you know, we all do this for the, for the same reason.

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We NA pad physicians and we ultimately just want to help people, you know, and there's nothing, there's no other net goal.

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We didn't become naturopathic physicians to become famous that's for sure.

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Um, so that's.

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So we're all on the same page.

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I, I wanna thank you for acknowledging the, uh, legislative work.

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I will also add that Wisconsin is now licensed.

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They came in after us in the last couple years.

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So we're super excited about Wisconsin.

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Uh, now licensed as naturopathic doctors.

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I have

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to say, I didn't even know that I didn't either.

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That's awesome.

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Yeah, that's awesome.

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Okay.

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So how long, let me just ask you this.

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I'm gonna get a few technicals outta the.

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You've been a naturopathic physician for how long?

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Since

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1986.

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I graduated, uh, I graduated on a Saturday night from naturopathic school and on Sunday afternoon I got married.

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Oh, wow.

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And I'm still with that same pathic doctor, husband of mine, Dr.

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Paul husk.

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Uh, who's been very instrumental in.

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A lot of things within our profession, but in terms of me, he was basically, I would consider him a, a one man research phenom, uh, who did a lot of work when I was sick to help us understand kind of what was going on and what would be the best treatment plans going forward.

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And, uh, I'm forever grateful for that.

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Yeah.

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So maybe just starting with a brief synopsis, just so.

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People who don't know, you become familiar with what, what ultimately for better and worse resulted in a lot of street cred within cancer care.

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and that was your own experience,

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you bet.

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Yes.

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And I've told this story many times, so those who have heard it before, I'm sorry.

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Um, I am a person who.

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Really has lived a very healthy lifestyle.

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My whole life I was early on in, you know, as a teenager, I was vegetarian.

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I was avid exerciser.

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I'd never abused my body with regard to alcohol or drugs.

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I always had wonderful, supportive community friends, family, etcetera.

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So that kind of continued.

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I really was very blessed with, with good health and vitality through my twenties, through my thirties.

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Forties through the birth and raising of three wonderful children who are now all grown up and, and doing good things in the world in their own.

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Right.

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Um, and then at, at 54 I found a, a lump in my breast a couple months after a normal mammogram, I had been tested previously for the BRCA mutation, which is a mutation that makes people more likely to develop.

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And or ovarian cancer.

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I had tested negative for it and always felt a kind of sigh of relief.

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When I tested negative, I kept testing because they kept telling me the test keeps getting better.

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Uh, when I found the lump in my breast, I, I knew it was not good because I had never had a lump in my breast before.

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Um, I just had a bad feeling about it and it had just popped up literally overnight.

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It was January.

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New year's day, 2014, the night before my husband and I avid ballroom dancers had been out dancing till four in the morning.

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I don't think I sat down for one dance felt at the top of my game, looked great, you know, clear mind, open heart.

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Uh, I was diagnosed the next day I went in and I, a couple days later I was diagnosed with, with early breast cancer.

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And they said to me, well, you know, you should have a lumpectomy and a little radiation.

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You'll be.

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And I said to them, actually, we're gonna take, remove both breasts because I, my sister who had disease as well, several times had had breast cancer, a ovarian cancer had also tested negative.

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And I said to the people, I, my care at excellence, state of the art care at mass general in Boston, a, a big teaching hospital, I, I said to them, you know, we might not have that gene, but we clearly have something and I'm not.

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Stand here and go through this again.

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In a couple years, we're gonna remove both breasts and we're be aggressive in our conventional medical treatments, which we did.

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And halfway through my treatment said, you might wanna get tested again.

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Just maybe the test has gotten a little better for your family.

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What your family might carry.

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So I did.

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And it turned out to be positive for the BRCA mutation, which basically for me meant just sort of bad timing.

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If I tested again, you know, I would've proactively removed my breasts and my ovaries, but anyway, I went through treatment and, uh, Dr.

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Kaser was very helpful part of my naturopathic doctor.

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Team that I worked with alongside my conventional care to help enhance efficacy of conventional care and prevent side effects and address side effects that arose and to mop up afterward.

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Um, thank you for all your help and being available to me.

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But honestly, they, they said to me, I think I finished my care for breast cancer in June.

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I had four rounds of chemo.

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I had 28 radiation shots to my chest wall.

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Because there was a little bit of lymphovascular invasion of the tumor itself, even though it was early stage in grading.

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I, I wanted to be that person who, if I ever got cancer again, and I was looking back, I would be able to say I did everything in my power to be healthy and to regain my health.

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So no stone on unturned.

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We, uh, did all those treatments finished in, in June or maybe July?

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And they said, well, why don't you wait, you know, six months or a year till you kind of recover from everything from breast cancer.

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And then we will prophylactically remove your ovaries.

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And I, at that point said, look, it's been a pretty crappy year.

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I don't wanna put this oil into the next year.

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Let's just wait till my hematocrit hits 36, cuz I was pretty anemic after, uh, cancer treatment for the breast cancer.

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Uh, and then let's go after my.

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So we did that.

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Uh, it was like literally, uh, three and a half weeks later, after my finished my last, uh, radiation treatment, I went in for surgery to have my overs removed and it was gonna be laparoscopic and it was supposed to be an hour, you know, and a half surgery.

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I woke up and I saw the clock and it was like eight hours later, I thought, Hmm, this can't possibly be good.

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There was cancer on both.

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Lucky me a few years back, my sister had gone through ovarian cancer at that time, the treatment for early stage one ovarian cancer, the treatment for that was basically a complete hysterectomy and no, no other care.

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That was the treatment mm-hmm Uh, for me, the treatment had changed and, and what was recommended was 12 more rounds of chemo, different chemo from the breast cancer.

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So I had 12 more rounds of chemo that.

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Quite a year.

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And my last chemo was January 2nd, 2015.

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So it was really book and you know that this year, but I made a commitment to Paul that last chemo, I said, honey, next year, six months from today, let's try to do a triathlon.

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I had never done a triathlon before.

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And I thought, I just need something that will.

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Hone my commitment to exercise, bump it up a little bit.

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I've always been an avid exercise, but bump it up a little bit and gimme something to look forward to.

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Let's make it a big family event.

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We'll invite the kids.

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We'll invite the siblings, the partners, the nieces, nephews, all that.

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So we had a big family triathlon.

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I did the whole thing myself.

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They all worked in teams that I did the whole thing myself.

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I did actually pretty well.

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And I felt like that for me, was my taking back some control and taking back some self-agency around my.

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Uh, I did a lot of other things.

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We can talk about all many things, many of which of course I write about in my book, you guys pontificate on, you know, so eloquently all the time.

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I basically do all of it.

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I would never ask a cancer patient of mine to do everything that I do.

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It's too much.

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I know it's too much, but I'm motivated and I'm blessed with a.

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Sunny disposition and a lot of energy.

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I, that really, I think just came through genetically.

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Um, so there, there we have it, that, that's my story.

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And I, you know, I have felt very well because we must have some symptoms left over and I don't, I, I mean, I don't want to jinx myself knocking on wood over here, but I really feel very well.

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I don't think that every person who's been through cancer will feel this well, no matter what they do.

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But I do think that most, any person who's been through cancer, whether they continue to have cancer for many, many people now due to effective conventional treatment live years and of productive, happy enough lives, uh, most of us can feel better than we feel today by taking some pretty basic steps in the direction toward.

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And leaving on the side of the road.

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Those things that we know work against.

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Good.

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Yeah.

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And, and I'm gonna vouch for the fact that you have a, a level of energy that most people just don't have.

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I mean, you really do have a tremendous amount of energy and of course, attitude and optimism.

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And like you said, a good disposition, which is a blessing as far as the way your neurotransmitters are set up and kudos to you for taking care of yourself.

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Cuz that of course is icing on the cake.

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Um, yeah, but you are a powerhouse and everyone knows that

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But, but I also wanna insert here that my entire career I have lived in semi-retirement in, in other words, I, the first two years, Paul and I worked six days a week.

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Half a day on Sunday, long days.

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And the Sunday was devoted to the treatment of large animals.

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We were in Omaha, Nebraska.

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We never took any money for that.

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It was just for sort of recommendations, suggestions.

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Um and we worked very, very hard that I had my first kid and I knew right away.

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I wanted to be home.

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I wanted to raise my kids.

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I didn't want having full time daycare.

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Although many people do and it works out fine that wasn't for me.

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I had three kids in three and a half years, and I threw my arms up to the universe.

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I, what I often call total surrender to the path of motherhood.

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Uh, I would work one day a week.

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Seeing patients when Paul would stay home.

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I used to call that my day off, cuz it was much easier to go to work.

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Um, and then when the last one started kindergarten, I started working two and sometimes three days a week.

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And I've never worked more than that.

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I mean, the other times I've seen do some writing, I just teaching and all of that, and it does add up, but I'm not full time seeing patients.

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And I like to say that aloud because I think I don't want to feel, I, I don't want people to feel disempowered, you know, it's like, yeah, I do a lot, but I also have been lucky to have other work that.

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Uh, through teaching where we earned a fair amount of our income.

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So I wasn't dependent on seeing patients 24 7.

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I also graduated from nature pathic medical school with no debt because it was much cheaper then.

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Um, and that's not true for a lot of practicing naturopathic doctors now who need to work more.

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So all things, you know, just full disclosure.

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Uh, I, I have a lot of energy and time to do a bunch of stuff because I'm not seeing patients 40, 50, 60 hours.

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so you have

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a lot of you time, which a lot that's, that's not typical, you know, and especially I noticed with, um, you know, my patients with, with breast cancer and ovarian cancer, they're very much like bad at giving themselves me

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time.

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Yeah, I think that's true for women in general.

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and it,

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those, those kind of go hand in hand.

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But, um, but yeah, I mean, it is, it really is this, um, this, this gift that you are able to, to have time for yourself.

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Right.

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And

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to fit that in one of the jobs that I feel I have as a naturopathic doctor, when I'm working with a patient.

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I feel like one of the jobs I have is to bring up in our conversation, you know, what are the biggest stressors in your life?

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And are there any of them that, that you can get, get out of or, or sidestep or let go of?

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Sometimes it's related to a job.

00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:56.740
Sometimes it's a stressful friend.

00:14:56.740 --> 00:15:00.820
Sometimes it's a something in the living situation.

00:15:01.330 --> 00:15:04.149
Sometimes it's something that's kind of niggling and, and not.

00:15:04.884 --> 00:15:07.044
Big and it's, it's, it's low hanging fruit.

00:15:07.044 --> 00:15:10.465
Like I had a patient recently who doesn't have air conditioning in her car.

00:15:10.794 --> 00:15:11.215
Okay.

00:15:11.215 --> 00:15:14.274
Well, you know, like it's, you're able to drive around 50 miles an hour.

00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:20.634
It doesn't very big deal, but in the Northeast, in the hot humid summer, it actually is a big deal, causes a tremendous amount of stress.

00:15:21.190 --> 00:15:25.269
And she didn't have enough money to, to get it fixed or didn't feel she did.

00:15:25.269 --> 00:15:27.879
And I just talked to her about, it was like, this is really stressing you out.

00:15:27.970 --> 00:15:29.950
I think this is something you can maybe work on.

00:15:29.950 --> 00:15:36.950
And so just having that conversation about what are the biggest stressors, are there any that are, that there's any wiggle room around?

00:15:37.554 --> 00:15:42.174
And if you just leave all that O on one side and you shift to the other side, it's like, okay, you can't get rid of that stress.

00:15:42.294 --> 00:15:45.654
What are you doing on a daily basis to help let off steam?

00:15:45.654 --> 00:15:53.904
And of course, this is where we get into things like exercise, mindfulness, meditation, fun, and joy with people that you love or on your own, or in nature, whatever.

00:15:53.965 --> 00:16:01.705
And so just really bringing it down, getting a little bit away from what is happening, biochemically, you know, so a lot of people are like, what supplements should I take?

00:16:01.710 --> 00:16:02.154
What earth should.

00:16:02.610 --> 00:16:03.600
Super important stuff.

00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.299
And we always cover that information as well, but really tacking it down.

00:16:07.870 --> 00:16:12.309
How stress impacts the neurotransmitters impacts immune function.

00:16:12.549 --> 00:16:15.610
And we're all like a hundred everybody, not just cancer survivors.

00:16:15.850 --> 00:16:18.220
We're a hundred percent dependent on our immune system.

00:16:18.340 --> 00:16:26.085
And if we're doing things on a daily basis that are impacting the efficacy, And the, the capacity for the immune system.

00:16:26.414 --> 00:16:29.865
Look, that's a very, that's a leverage point for us.

00:16:30.164 --> 00:16:38.865
And I think that in conventional medicine, there's not time in the average length of visit to have these kinds of conversations with patients.

00:16:39.225 --> 00:16:47.085
My oncologist have never asked me about my emotional self, my stress level, what I do to rely that's just, and.

00:16:47.830 --> 00:16:49.179
Worked with the best in the world.

00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:50.919
So I don't blame them.

00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:52.000
They they're on a tight schedule.

00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.169
It's a different paradigm.

00:16:53.169 --> 00:16:53.350
It's a.

00:16:54.264 --> 00:16:58.644
Philosophy of, of healing, but I certainly am not gonna leave that out with my people.

00:16:58.735 --> 00:16:58.855
Mm-hmm

00:16:59.335 --> 00:16:59.605
yeah.

00:16:59.605 --> 00:17:05.305
I mean, I think they're afraid to ask because they literally don't have the time for your answer, not you, but anyone's answer.

00:17:05.305 --> 00:17:07.914
They don't have the time to listen to a legitimate answer.

00:17:08.184 --> 00:17:08.755
A hundred percent.

00:17:09.140 --> 00:17:10.730
And it's so the what's interesting.

00:17:10.730 --> 00:17:22.220
And we should talk about this is, is, you know, you did a lot, like you said, you were at mass general, um, working with some of the best doctors in the country, if not the world and talking to the oncologists.

00:17:22.220 --> 00:17:26.240
So, and that's one of the things that you talk about in your book is how to talk to the oncologist.

00:17:26.390 --> 00:17:28.970
So the oncologist listens, um, and listen.

00:17:28.970 --> 00:17:34.230
So the how did that, how did that chapter go something and listen, Yeah, when they speak or something.

00:17:34.259 --> 00:17:34.500
So your

00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:36.509
oncologist talk mm-hmm right.

00:17:36.670 --> 00:17:42.599
And that's, that's lifted with, with, uh, attribution to a wonderful book called how to talk.

00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:44.069
So your kids listen and listen to your kids.

00:17:44.069 --> 00:17:47.369
Talk by, uh, two wonderful women MAs and Farber.

00:17:47.375 --> 00:17:52.980
And that was kind of my parenting Bible, but I felt immediately when I got into the oncology.

00:17:53.365 --> 00:18:01.615
You know, and it's a patient chair, you know, somebody who was a very generous person blurred my book, Linda Bornstein, who's a radiation oncologist.

00:18:02.035 --> 00:18:03.954
And she, she said, you know, Dr.

00:18:03.954 --> 00:18:09.414
Rothenberg sees this topic from both sides of the Johnny, which I, I had never heard that expression, but I thought it was terrific.

00:18:09.744 --> 00:18:15.234
As soon as I sat for five minutes in this patient chair, I was like, these people don't know how to listen, that all they did.

00:18:16.375 --> 00:18:17.214
Interrupt me.

00:18:17.454 --> 00:18:26.904
Uh, in fact, there, there are some interesting studies on conventional medicine, not necessarily related to oncology, but that basically the amount of time before a patient is interrupt.

00:18:27.414 --> 00:18:29.005
Is 11 seconds.

00:18:29.575 --> 00:18:30.234
Oh my gosh.

00:18:30.805 --> 00:18:32.634
You can't say that much in 11 seconds.

00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.375
I mean, I could say a lot talk kind of fast.

00:18:34.644 --> 00:18:36.384
No, but you can't say too much in 11 seconds.

00:18:36.384 --> 00:18:46.944
And, uh, I don't, I don't blame that, that world, you know, I went there for what they could do and they could offer me and they did an excellent job and I'm alive, I believe because of conventional medicine.

00:18:47.190 --> 00:18:49.289
Uh, alongside naturopathic care.

00:18:49.710 --> 00:18:57.210
So I think the key points that I will share with patients are if they're early on in the journey with, with a cancer diagnosis.

00:18:57.940 --> 00:19:02.200
Bring somebody with you, a number one that you, you cannot go this alone.

00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:03.339
You should not go this alone.

00:19:03.549 --> 00:19:09.130
If you are alone, some people are, are more alone in life by choice, or that's just how it happened.

00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:19.420
They have people, most, every hospital will have oncology, social workers who can come with you to a visit, especially the early visits where you're basically drinking out of a fire hose.

00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:20.980
It's information is coming at.

00:19:21.545 --> 00:19:24.994
Choices information, side effects sign here.

00:19:25.174 --> 00:19:29.674
It's just too much to take in while you're also managing what for most people is.

00:19:29.674 --> 00:19:36.484
A moment of overwhelm is a moment of terror and fright and, and just unknowing.

00:19:36.894 --> 00:19:39.355
Things that are, are, can be very scary.

00:19:39.414 --> 00:19:51.835
And any of you survivors listening, I'm sure you can remember when you first got the bad news, you know, it's sort of like your whole world cracks open and you have to go into immediate action, which is very difficult to do when your whole world is cracked open.

00:19:52.045 --> 00:19:56.934
So bring somebody with you, spend two minutes thinking about what is the best way that I learn.

00:19:56.964 --> 00:19:58.825
How do I take an information best?

00:19:59.065 --> 00:20:01.045
I'm a very auditory learner.

00:20:01.255 --> 00:20:07.210
So I asked all my providers, if I could record our sessions, some said, I think it's a liability thing.

00:20:07.539 --> 00:20:08.980
Um, many said yes, which is good.

00:20:08.980 --> 00:20:09.640
And I did listen.

00:20:10.329 --> 00:20:11.140
Which was helpful.

00:20:11.529 --> 00:20:29.500
Um, I, and then I think right from the beginning and all through a cancer, uh, let's say journey, although I'm not sure, I love that word lifetime, you know, survivorship, et cetera, keep things organized, whether it's in a notebook and you print things out three whole punch, like I started and then halfway through things.

00:20:29.500 --> 00:20:30.759
It's been many years now.

00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:31.420
Thank goodness.

00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:33.369
Uh, I shifted to all digital.

00:20:33.369 --> 00:20:36.430
I have files my lab works here and of course we can.

00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:38.789
Portals that can be so helpful.

00:20:39.210 --> 00:20:50.160
Um, keep things organized and keep a one page synopsis of your story so that if you're seeing a new provider for whatever, you can hand them, the one page synopsis, and then learn how to.

00:20:50.694 --> 00:20:59.184
Come to a visit with your questions written out and have them handy, or have'em on your phone or whatever device you use and be sure to tell your provider.

00:20:59.394 --> 00:21:06.144
I have some questions to ask that I wanna be sure we get to before our visit's over, put that out at the beginning and then do it.

00:21:07.015 --> 00:21:08.375
Uh, I think can be very helpful.

00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:10.930
I think doing that in real time.

00:21:11.230 --> 00:21:21.339
Like, as you have questions and it might be three weeks between your visits, jotting them down in real time is very useful because you think you're gonna remember because it's so impactful at that moment.

00:21:21.339 --> 00:21:27.069
And then you draw a blank when the doc walks in and so doing it in real time and just collecting those questions, I think can be

00:21:27.190 --> 00:21:27.490
helpful.

00:21:27.490 --> 00:21:28.000
Totally.

00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:33.609
And I think, you know, for many people in treatment or survivors, they're caught in a limbo between.

00:21:34.434 --> 00:21:40.134
Utter thankfulness for being alive and then literally terror about recurrence.

00:21:40.164 --> 00:21:43.345
And it's paralyzing, it's paralyzing, I mean, figuratively.

00:21:43.585 --> 00:21:54.875
And so people become very educated, competent, capable individuals, and everybody else too can become like they, they, they don't even present themselves in a.

00:21:55.325 --> 00:22:10.275
That is authentic to who they are and they lose their capacity to, uh, present a co a cogent question, et cetera, not everybody everybody's different, but I think that that's part of what's happening is that people's emotions get in the way of their minds.

00:22:10.809 --> 00:22:21.279
Very acceptable and common, and then they don't get the information that they want or need and they leave and they're like, oh, I should have asked them, you know, about this or that.

00:22:21.430 --> 00:22:27.490
Whether it's a side effect or whether it's something about fertility or something about not enjoying sex anymore.

00:22:27.494 --> 00:22:30.400
I mean, there's a lot out there that happens for survivors.

00:22:30.404 --> 00:22:34.930
That is, uh, if they've survived the cancer, that's considered a win.

00:22:35.335 --> 00:22:45.775
And it is, but if they don't feel well and their energy is poor and they have brain fog or lymphedema or peripheral neuropathy or fill in the blank, it's a quality of life issue.

00:22:46.105 --> 00:22:52.855
And I feel like with naturopathic medicine, we can impact quality of life as well as health, as well as health outcomes.

00:22:53.095 --> 00:23:00.744
So, um, that's why every survivor, if they can, should try to access naturopathic doctor or somebody who works in the integrative cancer.

00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:06.460
To help them to have a better quality of life and better health outcomes.

00:23:06.730 --> 00:23:07.240
That's

00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.750
a great segue for a question that I have for you.

00:23:10.755 --> 00:23:15.250
So you were at mass general, were they familiar with naturopathic medicine?

00:23:15.255 --> 00:23:19.990
Was there integrative care available in whatever realm that they

00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:20.500
consider

00:23:20.589 --> 00:23:21.640
integrative care?

00:23:21.819 --> 00:23:23.859
I would say that I was treated with a lot of respect.

00:23:24.730 --> 00:23:26.890
Kind of knew what naturopathic medicine was.

00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:29.500
Uh, this was 2014.

00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:32.500
We were not licensed in the state until 2017.

00:23:32.710 --> 00:23:36.519
And in fact, I received naturopathic license, doctor number one.

00:23:37.029 --> 00:23:44.230
In June of 2022, it took five years after the governor signed the bill before we were able to apply for licenses.

00:23:44.230 --> 00:23:46.900
So we don't have to talk about that, cause that was aggravating.

00:23:46.900 --> 00:23:50.109
But um, people knew what naturopathic medicine was.

00:23:50.109 --> 00:23:50.829
I would say.

00:23:50.829 --> 00:23:55.240
And I came in, I had my one pager about my, you know, history of present illness.

00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:56.200
I just presented it.

00:23:56.200 --> 00:24:02.710
I also had my second page of, and here's all the things that I'm doing to help enhance efficacy, prevent side effects, address side.

00:24:03.250 --> 00:24:09.369
All my supplements, all my exercise routine, my mindfulness stuff, things related to my diet, special foods.

00:24:09.369 --> 00:24:09.789
I was eating.

00:24:09.819 --> 00:24:10.990
I laid it all out for them.

00:24:10.994 --> 00:24:16.329
So, and I am, as we already determined, you know, energetic and upbeat.

00:24:16.329 --> 00:24:22.349
And I presented it always with a lot of you guys are saving my life and here's some other stuff I'm doing in that context.

00:24:22.819 --> 00:24:27.710
When I got to the ovarian cancer part, I had an amazing doctor, AK Goodman, who I can't say enough.

00:24:27.710 --> 00:24:39.680
Good things about who is herself, a licensed acupuncturist, even though she's a, a GYN oncology surgeon who volunteers a lot of her time, teaching surgery, Joanne surgeries in Bangladesh.

00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:42.349
So she's doing all the, all the good work in the world.

00:24:42.769 --> 00:24:43.609
Uh she's.

00:24:44.045 --> 00:24:45.125
Always thrilled.

00:24:45.184 --> 00:24:53.134
And I work with, uh, the head of clinical trials there, Richard Penson they oftentimes spend, spend time asking me what else is new in from our perspective?

00:24:53.255 --> 00:24:55.805
What else are we thinking about and doing Dr.

00:24:55.809 --> 00:24:57.214
Penson blurred my book.

00:24:57.214 --> 00:24:58.174
So did Dr.

00:24:58.174 --> 00:25:02.164
Lindsay Rockwell, uh, at the cancer center in my hometown.

00:25:02.375 --> 00:25:08.525
So I feel like there was openness and they do have integrative medicine options, but they could do more.

00:25:08.555 --> 00:25:11.825
So in other words, you can get Reiki, you can get a massage.

00:25:12.095 --> 00:25:20.224
You can get, um, a nutrition, somebody working with basics of nutrition, but they could do a lot more and they know it.

00:25:20.224 --> 00:25:23.704
And I think many cancer centers now realize patients want this.

00:25:23.825 --> 00:25:34.355
We know over 70% of individuals in America, going through cancer treatment are using some kind of integrative medicine, natural medicine things, whether it's melatonin to sleep or.

00:25:34.865 --> 00:25:40.444
Curcumin to for anti-inflammatory or acupuncture for lymphedema, you know, et cetera.

00:25:40.444 --> 00:25:45.724
So it's not like people have their head in the sand, but it's hard to know how to best integrate it.

00:25:45.875 --> 00:25:50.045
Not every cancer patient's looking for it or wanting it many are.

00:25:50.494 --> 00:25:54.964
Uh, I have no complaints about the way I was treated, vis Avi, my background.

00:25:54.970 --> 00:26:02.375
And I, I feel like there is so much ground for an opportunity for collaboration.

00:26:02.934 --> 00:26:03.865
There really is.

00:26:03.865 --> 00:26:10.285
And many of these providers send me patients, so they understand that they don't have the time or the expertise in this area.

00:26:10.585 --> 00:26:12.714
And I send them patients of course, all the time.

00:26:13.045 --> 00:26:15.085
Um, you know, I can't say enough about my breast surgeon.

00:26:15.085 --> 00:26:19.674
I've sent her, you know, like I'm a super refer, you know, people who, who need breast surgery for cancer.

00:26:19.674 --> 00:26:25.075
So, you know, it goes both ways and I feel that it's exciting after it's an exciting moment.

00:26:25.464 --> 00:26:26.095
Do you find.

00:26:26.609 --> 00:26:31.349
They're referring patients to you because you're Amy Rothenberg or because you're a naturopathic physician.

00:26:31.589 --> 00:26:35.700
In other words, have these people grown to know you personally well enough that they trust you.

00:26:35.700 --> 00:26:37.349
And now thus there's a referral.

00:26:37.829 --> 00:26:41.549
I mean, I, I feel like that's different than saying they trust naturopathic medicine.

00:26:42.154 --> 00:26:52.115
I think it's a good question, but to be honest, when I'm looking for a good endocrinologist in my area, you know, I love, I I'll take somebody out for lunch.

00:26:52.265 --> 00:26:53.914
I wanna understand the person.

00:26:54.125 --> 00:26:59.825
I, I know they got this training and they went to this school and they're licensed by this thing and they have this specialty.

00:26:59.829 --> 00:27:00.934
I know they have the cred.

00:27:01.490 --> 00:27:03.880
but I wanna know the person before I'm referring to them.

00:27:04.210 --> 00:27:07.329
So in fairness to those people referring to me, yes.

00:27:07.329 --> 00:27:14.109
I think it's who I am, but I think they also appreciate that I went to a, you know, a reputable school.

00:27:14.115 --> 00:27:16.750
I passed a standardized board exam.

00:27:16.750 --> 00:27:19.089
I, you know, it, it starts with individuals.

00:27:19.095 --> 00:27:20.200
It, it always does.

00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:23.569
Whether we're talking about race relations, you know, or medical.

00:27:24.664 --> 00:27:25.105
Referrals.

00:27:25.109 --> 00:27:33.075
So, um, I have also sent them the names of colleagues because the patient is in that area.

00:27:33.134 --> 00:27:37.994
Of course, a lot of people working via telemedicine due to COVID and will continue hopefully.

00:27:38.085 --> 00:27:38.325
And this.

00:27:39.115 --> 00:27:44.515
Integrative medicine, naturopathic medicine, oncology lends itself to telemedicine.

00:27:44.515 --> 00:27:56.704
So any of you listening to this podcast, if you don't live in a state where there are licensed naturopathic doctors or you live in a rural area, not close to that kind of services, many providers are able to work via telemedicine, which is wonderful.

00:27:57.444 --> 00:28:04.555
Um, so, you know, I hope some of it's because of me, you know, it's like, but I, I, I see the double edge there getting at Tina and I, I appreciate that.

00:28:05.829 --> 00:28:13.390
We have so much to offer even an entry level, naturopathic doctor would have a lot to offer a cancer survivor or a cancer patient going through treatment.

00:28:13.470 --> 00:28:13.789
Yeah.

00:28:13.789 --> 00:28:15.670
And of course you've mentioned.

00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:33.930
On the podcast, but there's the oncology association of naturopathic physicians, which is a specialty organization with additional training, additional testing, additional requirements, and anybody who has the designation fab, no, after their, uh, their ND these are people that you can really know.

00:28:34.565 --> 00:28:39.904
Have studied this topic deeply and had need a tremendous amount of continuing education.

00:28:39.904 --> 00:28:41.015
And you need a fab.

00:28:41.015 --> 00:28:41.194
No.

00:28:41.194 --> 00:28:41.914
In your court.

00:28:42.214 --> 00:28:42.365
Mm-hmm

00:28:42.845 --> 00:28:43.174
Yeah.

00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:51.755
I, I, I know cause I lecture quite a bit on, in oncology as you know, and when I'm lecturing to naturopathic physicians, I can feel the people who don't do a lot of.

00:28:52.269 --> 00:28:56.319
Cancer care are reticent, understandably, because they don't wanna do any harm.

00:28:56.710 --> 00:29:12.700
And what's amazing is I would argue that some of the most basic pieces of just getting summon to feel as well as possible on a day to day, proper sleep movement, keeping the bowels, moving, you know, hydration, all these super simple things are.

00:29:13.515 --> 00:29:21.565
Impactful during treatment and afterwards, I mean, even if someone's not specialized, there's so much that can be done to help somebody from a functional perspective, right.

00:29:21.654 --> 00:29:23.484
Help them function better on a day to day.

00:29:23.484 --> 00:29:24.384
And then, yeah, sure.

00:29:24.684 --> 00:29:31.464
If they're going through treatment, it's best to see somebody who's well versed in that and knows what can and can't be done alongside various conventional treatments.

00:29:31.674 --> 00:29:32.275
Definitely.

00:29:32.545 --> 00:29:33.115
Definitely.

00:29:33.174 --> 00:29:47.910
I, I, uh, I would add to that list, um, Looking at the, and some of the natural you're good at is looking at the toxins in your home, in your food that you're eating in the personal care and cleaning products that you use.

00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:53.250
Um, that's low hanging fruit, you know, get, get rid of that stuff slowly, replace things with.

00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:54.809
More natural stuff.

00:29:54.960 --> 00:30:03.150
And I love that you brought up, you know, ensuring, uh, daily bowel movements and just we, us naturopathic doctors have a whole world.

00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:07.529
We it's, the field is around called the E monies, which are the part.

00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:15.660
So the body that help us get rid of the natural metabolites as well as external, more toxic things, including having bowel each day.

00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:17.549
Good, deep breathing.

00:30:18.575 --> 00:30:20.825
Sweating as best we can.

00:30:20.884 --> 00:30:27.162
Um, and a few other things and that supporting the monies is just a very basic part of the naturopathic doctor toolkit.

00:30:27.281 --> 00:30:27.372
Oh

00:30:27.372 --> 00:30:37.271
I was gonna ask cuz I'm so curious because when I went through treatment, you know, I had my own treatment plan from having worked in oncology for several years.

00:30:37.392 --> 00:30:42.821
And then I had my naturopathic doctor who at the cancer center where I was treated, who reigned me.

00:30:43.461 --> 00:30:46.402
You know, I had this, like, I wanna do all this.

00:30:46.402 --> 00:30:47.211
And then he kind of

00:30:47.211 --> 00:30:49.432
like was like, okay, maybe, maybe

00:30:49.432 --> 00:30:49.821
not.

00:30:50.061 --> 00:31:04.701
So like, if you look back on all of the things you did, what were the few things that you took or that you, you know, you ate or what, whatever, like, what would you say would be your desert island treatment

00:31:04.701 --> 00:31:05.182
plan?

00:31:05.422 --> 00:31:05.721
Right.

00:31:05.961 --> 00:31:11.001
Well, I think, I think this goes back a lot to re remembering that many people going through treatment are.

00:31:12.021 --> 00:31:26.481
And so being able to do everything, whether it's shopping the organic section at the farmer's market, you know, or preparing healthy food or making time to exercise those things fall off the what can I do today?

00:31:26.571 --> 00:31:27.382
You know, list.

00:31:27.547 --> 00:31:35.467
Due to fatigue, uh, which I definitely experienced, particularly toward the end of my treatment when things were, you know, it's cumulative a, as it should be.

00:31:35.467 --> 00:31:38.317
It's a big job to do these harsh treatments cumulative.

00:31:38.646 --> 00:31:43.537
But I would say that probably the biggest changes that I made, um, that I stayed with.

00:31:43.537 --> 00:31:45.997
And remember, I went into this already very healthy.

00:31:46.446 --> 00:31:48.277
And honestly, I found in love with my breast.

00:31:48.277 --> 00:31:49.297
I felt perfect.

00:31:49.326 --> 00:31:52.207
The only time I, I never felt bad from cancer.

00:31:52.207 --> 00:31:57.517
I only ever felt bad from treatments for cancer, which I also understood were necessary for my survival.

00:31:57.727 --> 00:31:59.977
So it's a, you know, it's a complicated metric.

00:32:00.426 --> 00:32:13.626
Um, I was the kind of person who used to, I, I was eat dinner, you know, seven, eight o'clock maybe have a little snack at nine before bed, and then I would get up and I one foot on the floor, the other foot in front of the refrigerator for breakfast.

00:32:13.626 --> 00:32:14.497
And I had maybe.

00:32:15.067 --> 00:32:19.926
We would call that maybe a consistently speaking nine hour overnight fast.

00:32:19.987 --> 00:32:28.926
And I did a lot of the reading around fasting, uh, fasting, mimicking diets and how those impacted immune function, particularly during chemo.

00:32:29.227 --> 00:32:36.757
So I worked to extend my overnight fast and to this day, I'm now in that 15 to 16 hour a day overnight.

00:32:37.491 --> 00:32:40.761
Which I find very easy because I got to it gradually.

00:32:40.761 --> 00:32:41.872
I didn't try to do it overnight.

00:32:41.872 --> 00:32:43.102
I got to it gradually.

00:32:43.342 --> 00:32:44.602
That was one big change.

00:32:44.811 --> 00:32:48.711
The other thing I started to do was I started to drink water.

00:32:49.041 --> 00:32:52.701
Uh, sounds funny, but I am what I would consider a thirst, less person.

00:32:52.701 --> 00:32:53.582
I, I, I am almost.

00:32:54.021 --> 00:32:56.632
Never thirsty, except if I'm working out.

00:32:56.632 --> 00:33:02.422
If I go for a run, you know, I, I, I am thirsty and I drink, but other than that day to day, I don't have a coffee or tea habit.

00:33:02.426 --> 00:33:04.041
I don't, I'm just not that thirsty.

00:33:04.372 --> 00:33:07.192
Uh, so I have to remind myself and I've gotten better at it.

00:33:07.192 --> 00:33:11.842
And as we were taught in school, the more you drink, the thirsty you will become.

00:33:11.846 --> 00:33:15.682
That is true to a point I'm not the thirstiest person in the world.

00:33:15.741 --> 00:33:16.642
And then.

00:33:17.362 --> 00:33:25.342
Got, um, I had some very basic food sensitivity testing done, and I removed a number of foods that it turned out I was sensitive to.

00:33:25.342 --> 00:33:34.342
I didn't have any particular symptoms that made me think I had food sensitivities, but I also knew that food sensitivities can cause inflammation at some level.

00:33:34.612 --> 00:33:35.162
So I removed.

00:33:35.646 --> 00:33:37.896
Just a number, a small number of foods.

00:33:37.896 --> 00:33:40.237
Thankfully, none of them were favorite foods that was helpful.

00:33:41.017 --> 00:33:57.307
Um, other than that, I in, I had taken a handful, small handful of supplements based on my family history, my whole adult life, you know, besides the time when I was pregnant, where I took prenatals, uh, I took these, my father died of a heart attack in his sleep at 48.

00:33:57.307 --> 00:33:57.666
So I was.

00:33:58.186 --> 00:33:58.967
Mindful of that.

00:33:58.967 --> 00:34:00.136
I was taking fish oil.

00:34:00.136 --> 00:34:03.946
I was taking some anti-inflammatory things, not a lot, uh, just in the mornings.

00:34:03.946 --> 00:34:09.197
I upped my supplement game with direction and help from my naturopathic providers.

00:34:09.586 --> 00:34:13.126
Um, and I think that was about those are that's about it.

00:34:13.217 --> 00:34:14.947
That's about what I, what I changed.

00:34:15.646 --> 00:34:19.126
Uh, I added some special foods that we know have anti-cancer.

00:34:20.077 --> 00:34:24.246
Uh, I always loved mushrooms, but I made sure that I ate mushrooms almost every day.

00:34:24.666 --> 00:34:27.876
Um, I definitely upped my berries.

00:34:27.882 --> 00:34:30.336
We know that berries have such high antioxidants.

00:34:30.342 --> 00:34:33.067
I like berries, but I wouldn't, I wasn't eating them every day.

00:34:33.067 --> 00:34:36.396
I started eating berries most days, maybe in a smoothie or in some yogurt.

00:34:36.757 --> 00:34:43.536
And I also tended to, um, I, I'm not a big meat eater, but I felt.

00:34:44.061 --> 00:34:47.541
My blood counts really took a hit from chemo.

00:34:47.722 --> 00:34:58.791
So I started integrating more animal products into my diet and, you know, there, the, the research on diets, uh, related to cancer is continuing and ongoing.

00:34:59.001 --> 00:35:03.981
It does seem that a more plant based diet is probably better, but it's not better for everybody.

00:35:03.981 --> 00:35:04.961
And you have to take into.

00:35:05.561 --> 00:35:09.282
Other underlying illnesses and reactions to, uh, treatment.00:35:09.942 --> 00:35:12.101


Um, but I did add that.00:35:12.101 --> 00:35:19.782


And then the, the last thing that I added food wise was I started having a couple cups, a day of green tea for whatever it was worth.00:35:19.782 --> 00:35:22.481


I was also taking a green tea, um, supplement.00:35:22.811 --> 00:35:27.791


I would sometimes dilute that with pomegranate juice, you know, kind of double my money there.00:35:28.121 --> 00:35:28.751


And then.00:35:29.376 --> 00:35:31.686


Shifted more attention to my microbiome.00:35:31.746 --> 00:35:35.827


We know the microbiome was such a tremendous source of our immune capacity.00:35:36.097 --> 00:35:39.126


Mm-hmm um, I always had terrific digestive system, so it wasn't for that.00:35:39.157 --> 00:35:43.476


But, um, I really started taking and switching up probiotics.00:35:43.476 --> 00:35:46.027


I started eating more cultured and fermented foods.00:35:46.097 --> 00:35:51.086


To, to my, not a lot, you know, forks, fulls and spoonfuls, you don't need like a whole bowl of sauerkraut.00:35:51.536 --> 00:35:53.516


Uh, and that was fun to integrate things.00:35:53.516 --> 00:36:02.996


I, I learned more about kimchi, which I'd never really had the Korean condiment, there's a thousand kinds of kimchi to, to, to taste and experiment with.00:36:03.777 --> 00:36:12.746


Um, yeah, and I, I also did one, one thing that, uh, I share with patients, which is I gave myself the goal of eating 10 vegetables, a.00:36:13.356 --> 00:36:18.367


And people are like, oh my God, that sounds like too many vegetables, but here's how you do it.00:36:18.876 --> 00:36:21.277


You have one or two vegetables with your breakfast.00:36:21.427 --> 00:36:24.967


For me, what that means is sometimes I just eat a carrot or a piece of celery.00:36:25.056 --> 00:36:35.347


Uh, other times I I'll, I'll quick steam, a handful of KA or spinach and whatever else I'm having, whether it's granola and yogurt or eggs and a piece of toast, or sometimes leftovers.00:36:35.347 --> 00:36:37.177


I, I dis uh, I.00:36:37.956 --> 00:36:42.547


Connected, what is a breakfast food with breakfast that was very helpful.00:36:42.606 --> 00:36:45.726


Um, and then I have one salad a day always.00:36:45.731 --> 00:36:48.157


And in a salad you can put 5, 6, 7 veggies.00:36:48.306 --> 00:36:54.306


I love to great carrots and beets and red cabbage, a little bit of lettuce, maybe some tomatoes and cucumbers in there.00:36:54.367 --> 00:37:02.016


I have six veggies there because research has shown increasingly that it's not only the, the amount of veggies, but it's the variety of veggies that we eat.00:37:02.197 --> 00:37:03.157


That can be helpful.00:37:03.516 --> 00:37:05.856


So, and then I have one or two with dinner and, and I'm good to.00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:06.630


Yeah, I00:37:06.630 --> 00:37:13.701


think, uh, Heather Zuki, who's an immunologist, has recently lectured and, and is, was indicating that some of the research is showing at least 30 different.00:37:14.346 --> 00:37:15.155


Plant-based foods00:37:15.275 --> 00:37:17.195


per day, a week, a week?00:37:17.195 --> 00:37:18.365


No, a week a week.00:37:18.545 --> 00:37:18.755


Yeah.00:37:18.755 --> 00:37:19.476


Cuz I've been trying00:37:19.476 --> 00:37:20.106


to do that00:37:20.195 --> 00:37:20.735


a week.00:37:21.005 --> 00:37:24.005


Otherwise you would, all you would do all day is you'd be a rabbit basic thing00:37:25.115 --> 00:37:25.746


it was a week.00:37:25.775 --> 00:37:26.045


Okay.00:37:26.050 --> 00:37:26.465


A week.00:37:26.675 --> 00:37:26.945


Yeah.00:37:26.945 --> 00:37:37.505


And it has to be different, which is, I've been starting to teach my patients that, and it's harder than one thinks because we really get into this habit of like, you know, it's zucchini season.00:37:37.505 --> 00:37:38.945


So it's zucchini everything,00:37:38.945 --> 00:37:39.485


you know, and it's00:37:39.485 --> 00:37:46.956


like, Trying to fit that one in that maybe you wouldn't normally eat putting in that sweet potato or whatever it may be.00:37:46.956 --> 00:37:57.425


I mean, it's, I have been trying that and, um, it's a lot harder than I thought it would be for somebody who eats a lot of, you know, well, I, I could say plants, I'm going with plants all around.00:37:57.425 --> 00:37:58.115


So yeah,00:37:58.715 --> 00:38:04.865


I also, the other thing that I share with patients is the beauty and relevance of frozen organic.00:38:05.990 --> 00:38:13.161


You know, I will stock up when they go on sale at my local food co-op I will stock up on frozen broccoli, frozen kale.00:38:13.340 --> 00:38:16.670


And the reason I do it is not that I don't want.00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:20.240


but frozen is just about as good as fresh.00:38:20.601 --> 00:38:22.550


And it's very quick.00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:29.900


So if it's a day that I'm busy with patients, something with my kids, what have you, I can just literally steam in, in 30 seconds.00:38:30.050 --> 00:38:32.061


No chopping, no cutting, no washing.00:38:32.061 --> 00:38:33.351


You know, you just rinse out the pot.00:38:33.590 --> 00:38:40.010


And I have a big bowl of broccoli with my, you know, uh, with my almond butter and honey sandwich.00:38:40.041 --> 00:38:40.521


You know what I'm saying?00:38:40.521 --> 00:38:42.201


So it's, it's something that I can do quick.00:38:42.291 --> 00:38:44.570


Mm-hmm which sometimes is the operative.00:38:45.456 --> 00:38:48.545


And it's not going bad in the back of your fridge, in the veggie00:38:48.545 --> 00:38:49.056


bin.00:38:49.155 --> 00:38:49.826


Exactly.00:38:50.525 --> 00:38:55.175


And we travel a lot, Paul and I travel a lot for teaching and for family stuff, we travel a lot.00:38:55.175 --> 00:38:56.646


So I will have that in the fridge.00:38:56.646 --> 00:39:02.255


So when I come home from a trip, I don't, you know, there's nothing, I have my frozen veggies in the, in the freezer.00:39:03.365 --> 00:39:03.936


very helpful.00:39:04.235 --> 00:39:06.606


When you were in treatment, did you.00:39:07.505 --> 00:39:12.246


Make use of things like acupuncture and Reiki or reflexology massage.00:39:12.246 --> 00:39:12.606


Any of00:39:12.606 --> 00:39:13.085


that?00:39:13.536 --> 00:39:17.735


I was, I, I love a massage and I did get massage periodically.00:39:17.916 --> 00:39:22.865


I did acupuncture a few times for specific complaints that arose.00:39:22.865 --> 00:39:24.876


I developed a, a hematoma.00:39:24.876 --> 00:39:26.076


That was just terrible.00:39:26.106 --> 00:39:28.115


That was probably the worst part of my cancer treatment.00:39:28.115 --> 00:39:31.536


Was I developed a hematoma after not very bad fall.00:39:31.835 --> 00:39:33.726


I think my platelets were just that low.00:39:34.266 --> 00:39:36.965


Um, my blood counts were low, so I did some acupuncture.00:39:36.965 --> 00:39:48.155


Then I did find that, although I generally love anything related to that, you know, energy medicine, I'm, I I'm very easily influenced.00:39:48.155 --> 00:39:49.115


And I enjoy that.00:39:49.775 --> 00:39:54.606


I, the idea of going to another thing mm-hmm I didn't have the energy.00:39:54.606 --> 00:39:58.596


I didn't have the social energy to interact with a provider.00:39:58.596 --> 00:39:58.925


If you.00:39:59.646 --> 00:40:11.016


So early on after my double mastectomy, I had implants put on in, in the, at the, at the same time, it was very uncomfortable that first couple of weeks, I had a lot of hands on work, which was terrific.00:40:11.016 --> 00:40:13.925


But, um, after that less, so I do more of that.00:40:13.925 --> 00:40:17.346


Now as part of a maintenance thing, I try to get a massage every month.00:40:17.731 --> 00:40:22.440


Um, I love reflexology, you know, I I'm just a, a glutten for all that stuff.00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:23.130


So yeah.00:40:23.190 --> 00:40:27.960


And you know, and research shows that those things are just quality of life can really help people.00:40:28.021 --> 00:40:38.400


And I would say that many in hospital cancer centers and also freestanding cancer support centers, we have a beautiful one in north Hampton, Massachusetts near where I live called the cancer.00:40:39.166 --> 00:40:42.556


Offer many of these services for free, uh, to their providers.00:40:42.556 --> 00:40:50.235


And some of these services insurance, depending on your insurance will cover like massage, like acupuncture, chiropractic, osteopathic manipulations, et cetera.00:40:50.235 --> 00:40:55.096


So, uh, I, and, and I will feel that out, you know, no pun intended with my patients.00:40:55.101 --> 00:40:56.985


Some patients are very open to that.00:40:57.045 --> 00:40:57.706


Ask about it.00:40:57.706 --> 00:41:00.166


Wanted other patients never heard of it would never do that.00:41:00.286 --> 00:41:01.695


And a lot of people somewhere in between.00:41:01.936 --> 00:41:02.356


Yeah.00:41:02.360 --> 00:41:02.925


I, I have.00:41:03.476 --> 00:41:08.425


I remember a very poignant moment with a patient of my, and her name was Linda and she's, she's getting an IV.00:41:08.965 --> 00:41:13.635


And in talking to her, I put my hand on her arm, on her forearm.00:41:14.135 --> 00:41:18.246


And she looked at me and she said, no one ever touches me anymore.00:41:18.545 --> 00:41:24.516


And she, I mean, she brought me to tears cuz I was, I could feel how intense, like how important this was to her.00:41:24.516 --> 00:41:26.916


And I thought, gosh, it's not something I really thought about.00:41:26.916 --> 00:41:28.115


She didn't go home to somebody.00:41:28.115 --> 00:41:29.976


She didn't have a partner at that time.00:41:30.036 --> 00:41:33.365


And uh, you know, she just didn't have touch other than medical touch.00:41:33.365 --> 00:41:36.925


And you know, obviously I gave her a caring hand and she felt that, and it.00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:42.411


Kind of a profound moment for me to realize that that's something that I pay attention to with everybody all the time.00:41:42.411 --> 00:41:47.780


All of my patients after that date, I kind of, you know, mentally went through, are they getting this?00:41:47.780 --> 00:41:50.990


And how open are they to getting a massage or reflexology or whatever?00:41:50.990 --> 00:41:53.240


Cuz I think that touch is important.00:41:53.300 --> 00:41:54.081


Yeah, you bet.00:41:54.695 --> 00:42:00.215


Even a haircut, you know, like a lot of people cause they lose their hair sometimes with chemo, but just something like that.00:42:00.635 --> 00:42:07.626


Uh, I have a whole chapter in my book about physical touch and the various ways it can be received and sought, sought out.00:42:07.626 --> 00:42:09.126


I think it's in a very chemo.00:42:09.155 --> 00:42:10.476


We all need touch.00:42:10.476 --> 00:42:12.306


It's part of the human condition.00:42:12.846 --> 00:42:20.106


Uh, some of us have been, uh, not been touched appropriately, so there's, there could be a big trigger point, lot trauma around touch.00:42:20.106 --> 00:42:21.755


So, you know, it's a little bit of.00:42:22.356 --> 00:42:25.025


Landmine, but it's certainly something to bring up.00:42:25.385 --> 00:42:32.706


And of course that is related also to intimacy many cancer survivors after treatment.00:42:32.735 --> 00:42:35.045


Even if they have very good prognosis.00:42:35.465 --> 00:42:41.976


And not a lot of big other kinds of side effects have lower sex drive, less satisfaction with sex things.00:42:41.976 --> 00:42:43.235


Don't work all the same.00:42:43.295 --> 00:42:45.155


And that's very common.00:42:45.155 --> 00:42:53.766


That's often never talked about in the conventional oncology setting, the bigger oncology, um, hospitals and centers.00:42:53.766 --> 00:42:54.755


Now some of them have.00:42:55.291 --> 00:43:00.451


Separate sections for intimacy sexuality, where people can go and really talk about that.00:43:00.661 --> 00:43:04.170


And there are things to, to help in that realm.00:43:04.170 --> 00:43:10.650


I have a hope chapter in the book on, uh, satisfaction and, and enjoyment from intimacy and, and sex.00:43:10.650 --> 00:43:12.510


And I, I feel like it's an important thing to bring off.00:43:12.541 --> 00:43:14.431


If, if pertinent, if I have a.00:43:15.365 --> 00:43:18.905


A person who that like is asexual, you know, who just never is interested in that.00:43:18.905 --> 00:43:29.806


Obviously this is not their, uh, their area of interest, but for a lot of people, it's, it is part of, uh, something that they wanna get back to, perhaps something that is.00:43:30.306 --> 00:43:38.076


Part of their, um, the normal, you know, I've got air quotes going here, normal things people do in life.00:43:38.315 --> 00:43:43.385


And that can be, and some people have, you know, men, a lot of times can no longer have an erection.00:43:43.391 --> 00:43:47.826


Women have terrible vaginal dryness and getting, uh, irritated with intercourse.00:43:47.856 --> 00:43:57.335


And this, of course, many other ways people can be together, but having the conversation and, you know, and then here is the list of naturopathic approaches that we can use.00:43:57.960 --> 00:43:59.610


Fill in the blank kind of problems.00:43:59.610 --> 00:44:14.431


So, uh, I did write about that with some, uh, some depth in, in my book, because I feel like it's information people really want mm-hmm they really are interested and especially younger and younger people sadly are getting cancer.00:44:14.641 --> 00:44:18.481


So you, somebody who's 30 years old, you know, they have a, a whole life ahead of them.00:44:18.481 --> 00:44:22.440


They don't wanna ha be, you know, not be able to enjoy intimacy.00:44:23.061 --> 00:44:23.331


Yeah.00:44:23.391 --> 00:44:23.601


And I00:44:23.601 --> 00:44:27.561


think reframing intimacy is a really important part of it.00:44:27.981 --> 00:44:36.501


Um, and especially I've noticed with my male patients, you know, what, what their view of intimacy is, and their partner's view can be very different.00:44:36.505 --> 00:44:41.090


And they, like you were saying, like, communication is so important because they may never have discussed that.00:44:41.481 --> 00:44:51.050


Um, one of my favorite things to prescribe to my male patients is ballroom dancing because it's so intimate and.00:44:52.025 --> 00:44:52.715


It's.00:44:53.255 --> 00:44:55.385


I mean, I don't even have to tell you you ballroom dance.00:44:55.476 --> 00:45:04.445


So I have to say for most men in a heteronormative kind of situation, let's just say that, uh, you know, are cons are leaders in, in ballroom dance, not everywhere.00:45:04.445 --> 00:45:08.916


And there's more openness to anybody can lead, but it's also terrifying to start.00:45:09.126 --> 00:45:19.715


And I always, if you have a couple, you know, where one person wants to lead and one person is gonna follow, um, I always recommend have the leader go for three or four months by themselves without the follower.00:45:20.106 --> 00:45:22.746


They need to get a little bit, it is much easier to follow.00:45:22.746 --> 00:45:24.126


And so then the follower's like, what's wrong with you?00:45:24.126 --> 00:45:24.815


You can't leave me.00:45:24.996 --> 00:45:25.476


Believe me.00:45:25.476 --> 00:45:29.766


It's I, I do both cuz I'm really a student of that world.00:45:30.215 --> 00:45:32.646


Uh, and it's much harder to lead.00:45:32.706 --> 00:45:39.096


And so it, we always talk about how ballroom dance can start out as this wonderful thing that couples try and do together and goes directly from there to divorce.00:45:39.641 --> 00:45:42.681


Because they get so irritated with each other, you know?00:45:42.860 --> 00:45:48.260


So let the leader go first for a few months, just learn the concept of holding one's frame.00:45:48.260 --> 00:45:52.701


Learn the concept of lead and follow learn the concept of like the music actually goes with the steps.00:45:52.820 --> 00:45:59.231


It's a lot to take in mm-hmm we can do a whole other session on ballroom dance on another podcast.00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:07.190


I, I will say though, though, during treatment, I was, I had done a year of ballroom when I was diagnosed.00:46:07.251 --> 00:46:19.130


I have to say that my ballroom dance community was, I don't know if what was working better, the chemo or ballroom, I would literally go from one to the other and I would feel so good after getting off the dance floor.00:46:19.490 --> 00:46:24.351


It was an, it was literally a, a very big gift and a big part of my healing.00:46:24.951 --> 00:46:29.541


That's awesome because people I would walk in and people would say to me, and I, you know, I got really skinny.00:46:29.541 --> 00:46:30.440


I'd lost my hair.00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:36.831


I'm sure I was gray as a cloud, you know, and people would say, save a dance for me, or, oh, it's so good to see you.00:46:36.891 --> 00:46:44.150


I can't wait to have a waltz with you later, as opposed to other settings, the grocery store or the park people would come to me.00:46:44.391 --> 00:46:45.050


Oh my God.00:46:45.050 --> 00:46:46.431


I heard I'm so sorry.00:46:46.731 --> 00:46:56.811


You know, and that, that right there was a difference between, you know, making me feel really bad and worse and making me feel like, okay, I'm going through this thing.00:46:56.811 --> 00:46:58.971


Everybody goes through something I'm gonna get through it.00:46:59.001 --> 00:46:59.420


You know?00:46:59.811 --> 00:47:00.740


And even if I don't.00:47:01.780 --> 00:47:07.536


even if the outcome had been different to still be seen as an individual and a person as opposed to like a cancer person.00:47:07.715 --> 00:47:07.985


Right.00:47:08.436 --> 00:47:10.266


Well, I mean, we could talk all day to you.00:47:10.271 --> 00:47:13.025


We, we, we could go chapter by chapter through your book.00:47:13.025 --> 00:47:14.646


This is, has been awesome.00:47:14.646 --> 00:47:15.335


Just chatting.00:47:15.666 --> 00:47:18.976


Um, so I know we're gonna hell of you back in the future because.00:47:19.675 --> 00:47:21.416


It's just great to get your opinion.00:47:21.416 --> 00:47:25.675


And I think that we've got a lot of useful information for the listeners in this, in this episodes.00:47:25.766 --> 00:47:30.565


Great love to, so I'm, I'm excited to do these interviews, um, with you and others in the future.00:47:30.570 --> 00:47:34.286


So is there anything else, Leia, that we didn't cover that we should hit?00:47:34.436 --> 00:47:35.306


I don't think so.00:47:35.306 --> 00:47:39.626


I mean, I, I am kind of curious about what kind of exercise you did during your treatment.00:47:39.626 --> 00:47:47.273


I have, um, kind of been working with other people at the hospital to Institute a referral program for every patient.00:47:47.643 --> 00:47:50.432


To get some sort of exercise.00:47:51.708 --> 00:47:55.458


Assessment, you know, training because it is so important.00:47:55.458 --> 00:47:56.657


And so yeah.00:47:56.807 --> 00:47:57.407


How is it for00:47:57.407 --> 00:47:57.737


you?00:47:58.217 --> 00:48:01.427


Yeah, we know that exercise comes in three parts.00:48:01.427 --> 00:48:07.518


We have aerobic exercise, we have resistance training or weight lifting, and we have something sort of stretching.00:48:07.938 --> 00:48:11.297


And I found that I, I tried to go for a walk every day.00:48:11.358 --> 00:48:12.827


That was what I could do, aerobically.00:48:12.827 --> 00:48:16.068


I didn't do much more occasional bike ride in the better weather.00:48:16.068 --> 00:48:19.157


I swam some when I, when my white count was high.00:48:20.358 --> 00:48:23.387


Didn't wanna get in that C pool of a, you know, town pool.00:48:23.717 --> 00:48:29.538


But, um, I, I tried to do some yoga or some stretching of some sort.00:48:29.538 --> 00:48:31.038


I didn't do much resistance training.00:48:31.038 --> 00:48:41.657


I worked a little bit, uh, with the bands because I, you know, I, I was very interested in like, not getting any issues related to the radiation side related to lymphedema.00:48:41.847 --> 00:48:42.137


I.00:48:42.677 --> 00:48:44.657


Thankfully didn't have lymphedema.00:48:45.288 --> 00:48:50.688


Um, it turned out that my Sentinel notes were quite central, kind of toward my, uh, sternum.00:48:51.047 --> 00:49:01.487


My, my, so there, uh, was less, I think, possibility of lymphedema there, but, uh, I think that the live strong program at Y M C a as many Y M CS across the country is excellent.00:49:01.728 --> 00:49:03.168


They do a fair job.00:49:03.168 --> 00:49:04.657


You have to be cleared by your P.00:49:05.222 --> 00:49:07.262


But they, it's a wonderful group.00:49:07.262 --> 00:49:10.083


It's cancer patients and survivors mixed together.00:49:10.293 --> 00:49:15.302


And they'll take you through per and they'll have somebody follow you around and kind of gear it just to you.00:49:15.512 --> 00:49:16.652


That's one model.00:49:16.862 --> 00:49:19.922


Uh, I, and I, it, I cannot say enough about.00:49:20.208 --> 00:49:24.708


How it made me feel like I was doing something normal, which is very important.00:49:24.887 --> 00:49:27.918


Mm-hmm and I think it helped the treatments work better.00:49:27.918 --> 00:49:37.717


I mean, we know particularly with radiation, one of the best advice we give our patients with for radiations is if you're better perfused, meaning the blood is moving around better, you will.00:49:37.907 --> 00:49:38.268


The, the, the.00:49:38.793 --> 00:49:40.413


Radiation will work better.00:49:40.532 --> 00:49:46.833


So I would walk for about two miles before I got on that cold metal table for my radiation treatments.00:49:47.072 --> 00:49:48.663


And I was often sweating.00:49:48.902 --> 00:49:52.503


My monies were working, I was sweating and the people would say, are you okay?00:49:52.503 --> 00:49:53.072


You have a fever?00:49:53.072 --> 00:49:54.663


I'd be like, no, I just walked a couple miles.00:49:55.112 --> 00:50:01.083


Um, and it also helps protect some of the underlying organs that you don't wanna get, um, radiated.00:50:01.083 --> 00:50:05.492


So things like that I think are super important during treatment and afterward.00:50:06.152 --> 00:50:08.132


The number one, I will just say this.00:50:08.313 --> 00:50:13.233


If somebody's gonna do only one thing as a survivor, they should exercise.00:50:13.262 --> 00:50:18.632


And if they're already exercising, they should uptick the amount and the variety of exercise they get.00:50:19.112 --> 00:50:20.552


Mm-hmm absolutely.00:50:21.288 --> 00:50:34.757


Yeah, no, this has been, like you said, I mean, I could continue to listen to you and ask questions and I mean, it's always interesting for me to meet another naturopathic physician who is a survivor because, um,00:50:35.148 --> 00:50:37.068


yeah, it's, it's complicated.00:50:37.307 --> 00:50:43.788


I mean, the main thing that people said to me when I told them that I had breast cancer, like friends, you know, they're like you got breast cancer.00:50:44.177 --> 00:50:54.438


I'm screwed is what they said, because they knew my lifestyle, but I always will, will point out to patients, you know, across the board, bad things happen to good people.00:50:54.498 --> 00:50:56.117


You know, people can do every single thing.00:50:56.117 --> 00:50:56.478


Right.00:50:56.987 --> 00:50:58.518


Um, nobody's getting out alive.00:50:58.518 --> 00:51:00.228


I mean, you know, be perfectly honest.00:51:00.233 --> 00:51:02.447


It, it is part of the contract of, of life.00:51:02.478 --> 00:51:04.307


So gotta make the best of what we do have.00:51:04.307 --> 00:51:09.648


And, and there are opportunities everywhere to improve quality of life and impact health outcomes.00:51:09.648 --> 00:51:09.858


So.00:51:11.072 --> 00:51:12.452


Can I mention my book for a minute.00:51:12.452 --> 00:51:13.472


Could talk a little bit about my book.00:51:13.563 --> 00:51:14.253


Absolutely.00:51:14.253 --> 00:51:14.672


Yeah.00:51:14.733 --> 00:51:16.023


Th this is the perfect time.00:51:16.112 --> 00:51:16.382


Oh yeah.00:51:16.382 --> 00:51:17.822


We probably should give the title of the book and such.00:51:17.822 --> 00:51:18.632


Yeah, we've mentioned it.00:51:18.693 --> 00:51:20.043


You kinda but we haven't00:51:20.043 --> 00:51:22.083


talked well, it's called you finished treatment.00:51:22.083 --> 00:51:24.543


Now what a field guide for cancer survivors?00:51:25.052 --> 00:51:25.983


I did not.00:51:25.983 --> 00:51:26.583


Self-publish.00:51:26.583 --> 00:51:29.103


I have a wonderful publisher called Kohler books.00:51:29.432 --> 00:51:32.583


Um, and it is launching on September 20.00:51:33.632 --> 00:51:34.532


2022.00:51:34.802 --> 00:51:54.152


It is available in hardback, soft back audiobook and ebook mm-hmm And it is really just a kind of ride through a lot of different areas we've covered on this podcast and more, and there's a fair amount of me in the book because I really, I I've been through it.00:51:54.152 --> 00:51:56.342


And so I tried to share that in a way.00:51:56.983 --> 00:51:58.063


Helps people understand.00:51:58.063 --> 00:52:00.943


I also share patient stories in most of the chapters.00:52:01.123 --> 00:52:04.963


So you can get a little bit of a sense of how doctors, uh, like Dr.00:52:05.052 --> 00:52:05.833


Leia and Dr.00:52:05.833 --> 00:52:10.242


Tina and I work with patients just vignettes of, of patient stories.00:52:10.572 --> 00:52:22.932


Um, I also talk a little bit about translational medicine, where we know things are happening in the laboratory, that there is wonderful things coming down the pike, but takes a long time to get from there to the bedside.00:52:23.052 --> 00:52:24.463


And just how to keep your.00:52:24.932 --> 00:52:28.893


As up to date as possible with clinical trials and things like that, which I think is important.00:52:29.402 --> 00:52:33.182


Um, and, uh, I think it's a fun book and it's absolutely beautiful.00:52:33.188 --> 00:52:38.012


I, I love the way the publisher, that the cover that they created is, is beautiful.00:52:38.643 --> 00:52:40.052


And I hope a lot of people will read it.00:52:40.057 --> 00:52:46.418


And if you're interested in having me come speak to a support group, Or a book group or be on your podcast.00:52:46.418 --> 00:52:50.467


I am really trying to spread the word and the information in this book.00:52:50.467 --> 00:52:54.697


It's, it's a bit of a love letter to, to our profession, I would say.00:52:55.057 --> 00:52:57.788


Um, and I'd like to share it as widely as possible.00:52:58.418 --> 00:52:59.498


Mm-hmm well, and we'll00:52:59.498 --> 00:53:01.327


put a link to it in our show notes, for sure.00:53:01.333 --> 00:53:03.427


So that people can link over and find the book easily.00:53:03.757 --> 00:53:06.157


And I wanna put a little plug in you also.00:53:07.443 --> 00:53:08.012


Audio.00:53:08.103 --> 00:53:09.483


So it will be on audible, right?00:53:09.543 --> 00:53:10.023


Dot com.00:53:10.052 --> 00:53:10.472


Yes.00:53:10.478 --> 00:53:10.802


Yes.00:53:10.802 --> 00:53:11.853


It will be on audible.00:53:11.943 --> 00:53:12.543


The audible.00:53:12.543 --> 00:53:17.072


Um, my sound engineer promises me will be done by early fall.00:53:17.072 --> 00:53:23.432


So yeah, in the next couple of months, and that is harder than it looks reading a whole book aloud.00:53:23.762 --> 00:53:26.552


There's a lot of words that we read and we write that are big.00:53:27.152 --> 00:53:33.032


That we have no problem writing, but then when they, they just don't flow off the mouth just quite as easily as you think.00:53:33.422 --> 00:53:38.882


Uh, but it was, it was a fun exercise and it was also the first time I had ever read a whole book out loud like that.00:53:39.302 --> 00:53:50.793


And I could see the arc of the story in the book from the time of diagnosis and from the time of completing treatment all the way through where I am now, some many years later.00:53:51.182 --> 00:53:52.862


And it's a good story.00:53:53.793 --> 00:53:54.813


I think it's a good story.00:53:55.880 --> 00:54:00.751


Yeah, I can't wait for the full book we've gotten I've, I've read some excerpts, but, um, I'm, I'm00:54:00.831 --> 00:54:01.971


Jones in for the whole thing.00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:06.291


Well, you can let me know what form you'd like it in and I will be sending it to you.00:54:06.681 --> 00:54:08.150


Uh, I, I don't know.00:54:08.150 --> 00:54:09.411


Who's gonna buy the hard cover.00:54:09.411 --> 00:54:12.561


It's quite expensive, but some people, some people already tell me I want the hard cover.00:54:12.561 --> 00:54:13.280


I'm like, okay, that's fine.00:54:13.550 --> 00:54:16.190


Um, but yes, I'd be happy to send you a copy.00:54:16.190 --> 00:54:16.641


Both of you.00:54:17.061 --> 00:54:17.661


Oh, thank you.00:54:17.661 --> 00:54:18.021


Yeah.00:54:18.021 --> 00:54:21.621


Now I would love to have more advice on how to get through.00:54:22.670 --> 00:54:27.568


Part of, you know, post-treatment so cuz I think there's always stuff to learn.00:54:27.568 --> 00:54:27.958


You know,00:54:28.407 --> 00:54:35.007


that the other thing that I, one vision I have for this book, somebody says me, well, what do you want this book, you know, to, to do?00:54:35.007 --> 00:54:36.237


Or where do you want it to go?00:54:36.237 --> 00:54:40.858


I said, I'd like every oncologist to have a stack of them in their office and just give it to their patients when they're done with treatment.00:54:41.231 --> 00:54:47.621


Instead of, you know, like one of my doctors, when you finished your last radiation treatment, there was a bell there that you could ring to like celebrate the end.00:54:47.621 --> 00:54:50.170


And I, I did it and I felt very weird about it.00:54:50.170 --> 00:54:51.880


It was sort of like, I don't need a bell.00:54:51.880 --> 00:54:56.050


I need like, what's the roadmap for, for now, you know, what are we doing now?00:54:56.050 --> 00:54:57.490


And that's what this book is about.00:54:57.851 --> 00:55:03.835


So you finished your treatment here, have this book, you should read this, go find yourself a naturopathic doctor, you know, Yeah.00:55:03.835 --> 00:55:04.045


I, I00:55:04.045 --> 00:55:09.326


love the connotation of the book being a field guide because it's exactly it you're, you're in this intense treatment.00:55:09.326 --> 00:55:10.856


You're being seen a lot by doctors.00:55:10.856 --> 00:55:16.195


And then when it's over, you literally walk out the door and that's it, like see you in a year,00:55:16.525 --> 00:55:19.135


you're kicked out of the nest kind of a thing, you know?00:55:19.166 --> 00:55:19.646


Yeah.00:55:19.856 --> 00:55:22.675


And, and you're saying this Leia, and you're a natural by the doctor.00:55:22.675 --> 00:55:26.215


So imagine people who don't have any of that background or training.00:55:26.246 --> 00:55:26.335


Yeah.00:55:26.340 --> 00:55:31.085


It's, it's like it's ex people are, feel exalted for like 10 minutes and then they.00:55:31.735 --> 00:55:36.505


Like, oh, now what mm-hmm Anyway, thank you so much for having me.00:55:36.505 --> 00:55:37.346


It's really been fun.00:55:37.556 --> 00:55:38.126


Oh, thank you00:55:38.126 --> 00:55:38.516


for,00:55:38.516 --> 00:55:41.335


for making time to, to talk to us.00:55:41.335 --> 00:55:42.175


This has been great.00:55:42.356 --> 00:55:42.775


You bet.00:55:43.166 --> 00:55:44.786


I think we all, we all survived00:55:44.786 --> 00:55:45.295


our first00:55:45.295 --> 00:55:45.806


interview.00:55:47.065 --> 00:55:49.255


ours, not yours, Amy or Tina.00:55:49.916 --> 00:55:50.965


It's mine.00:55:51.266 --> 00:55:52.496


I've never interviewed anyone.00:55:52.496 --> 00:55:52.646


So00:55:52.646 --> 00:55:53.215


this is, this00:55:53.215 --> 00:55:53.996


has been a lot of fun.00:55:54.746 --> 00:55:55.045


yes.00:55:55.286 --> 00:55:56.186


Thank you so much, Amy.00:55:56.186 --> 00:56:02.726


It's been a good time and a lot of great information and um, I think it's one that people probably can listen to more than once is my guess.00:56:02.726 --> 00:56:02.876


Cuz.00:56:03.106 --> 00:56:06.405


Jam packed with all sorts of good tips and, and helpful advice.00:56:06.405 --> 00:56:07.186


So thank00:56:07.186 --> 00:56:07.365


you.00:56:07.385 --> 00:56:07.905


Awesome.00:56:07.996 --> 00:56:08.175


Awesome.00:56:08.175 --> 00:56:08.865


All right, you're welcome.00:56:08.945 --> 00:56:10.396


Bye-bye see you.00:56:10.998 --> 00:56:12.018


that was a lot of fun.00:56:12.048 --> 00:56:16.818


Um, I, this was my first time ever talking with, with Dr.00:56:16.818 --> 00:56:17.329


Rothenberg.00:56:17.329 --> 00:56:19.001


So I think I'm gonna like00:56:19.001 --> 00:56:23.237


these interviews, Tina I think you're gonna really like the interviews because I'll be honest.00:56:23.237 --> 00:56:23.717


I mean, okay.00:56:23.748 --> 00:56:24.768


So here's the thing you've got.00:56:25.472 --> 00:56:27.333


At least 12 BFFs out there.00:56:27.452 --> 00:56:30.992


So I know, you know how to talk to people and chat and be a good conversationalist.00:56:30.992 --> 00:56:32.793


I've known you for long enough to know that.00:56:33.123 --> 00:56:42.512


So to me, I was like, if we do interviews, we could talk to people who know stuff, whether it's a nutritionist, an acupuncturist or whatever, and all we have to be is inquisitive and, and have a conversation.00:56:42.987 --> 00:56:44.577


And we get to talk to a real expert.00:56:44.668 --> 00:56:44.847


Yeah.00:56:44.847 --> 00:56:48.117


We could go into a conversation, not knowing anything and just ask a bunch of questions.00:56:48.117 --> 00:56:48.958


No, this is good.00:56:49.228 --> 00:56:49.617


Yeah.00:56:49.617 --> 00:56:56.818


I mean, I, and I think that it's a, win-win, it's less work for us, but it's also straight to somebody who's an expert in something, so that's best for the listener anyway.00:56:56.985 --> 00:56:57.164


Okay.00:56:57.170 --> 00:56:57.494


Let's wrap00:56:57.500 --> 00:56:57.824


it up.00:56:58.005 --> 00:57:07.965


Um, so we've got more interviews coming in this pod series, and then I guess in this new season, and if you like what you hear.00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:09.769


Send us a note.00:57:09.769 --> 00:57:16.039


If there's anyone you want us to talk to, I know we've gotten a lot of people requesting to be on the podcast.00:57:16.250 --> 00:57:25.030


And so now that we're starting to do interviews, um, we can start reaching out, rate and review, listen, bias, coffee, all that stuff that we always say at the end of the, the00:57:25.034 --> 00:57:25.510


episodes.00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:26.530


That's right.00:57:26.559 --> 00:57:28.389


Give us feedback, you know, reach out to.00:57:29.034 --> 00:57:30.925


We are at the cancer pod everywhere.00:57:30.925 --> 00:57:35.545


The can pod.com at the cancer pod on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter.00:57:36.355 --> 00:57:42.385


so Gmail, Gmail, just send us a note and, uh, yeah, we'll keep doing what we're doing.00:57:42.385 --> 00:57:49.045


As long as it's helping people out and a little shout out doesn't hurt, do pass it on to friends and loved ones that you wanna help out.00:57:49.105 --> 00:57:53.681


I think that's really useful, cuz that is the goal here is to help people and so share this.00:57:53.681 --> 00:57:55.331


If you are so inclined.00:57:55.481 --> 00:57:55.871


Yeah.00:57:56.141 --> 00:57:57.402


On that note, I'm Dr.00:57:57.402 --> 00:57:59.052


Lea Sherman and I'm Dr.00:57:59.052 --> 00:58:02.382


Tina Kaser and this is the cancer pod until next time.00:58:44.130 --> 00:58:44.621


Okay.