The Truth About...Dairy. Does it Promote Cancer?

Tina 0:00

Yes, Leah.

LEAH 0:02

A few months ago I was talking with a patient, like a new consult, and I asked them at the end like I always do, do you have any questions? And they asked me, is dairy bad for cancer? And I said, there's really no strong evidence showing one way or the other. And I kind of had this conversation and the very next day, I got an article in my inbox that said that dairy increases the risk of breast cancer,

Tina 0:33

Oh.

LEAH 0:34

and I'm like, what the heck? What the heck? And so, yeah, that kind like reminded me of those first episodes that we did on soy and alcohol. Like, like, what the heck? Like how can you have, one day there's an article saying, no, dairy's fine, and then the next dairy's gonna kill you. Like, what's the truth?

Tina 0:56

What is the truth? The truth about dairy?

LEAH 0:58

That's what we're talking about today.

Tina 1:00

Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, I'll spare you my philosophical musings of late, but this speaks to the idea that medicine is not a hard science. We don't get to do the black and white that hard sciences get to do. Right? I mean, gravity exists and there's equations to show that We're what I would call more of a soft science in medicine, which means you can. Replicate the same thing over and over. Every person with breast cancer, dairy is bad for, or every person with prostate cancer. Dairy is bad for or is good for, cuz people are different. So it precludes the scientific model to a large extent.

LEAH 1:38

you can't, yeah, I don't think that you can go back into. Like diet history and like pinpoint exactly like, oh, it was this one time you had that extra cheese on the pizza. That's what got you. You know, I just, and diet, you know, is, or nutrition I should say is, it's such a touchy subject because I think people do blame themselves for, oh, it's because of how I ate, or whatever reason. And you know, nobody should put that blame on themselves. But it is something that is often showing up in article. And when I say articles, I mean like, this is like med scape stuff. This isn't like, you know, I don't know, like this isn't Cosmo or USA Today.

Tina 2:18

Good housekeeping.

LEAH 2:19

Good Housekeeping. Yeah, no, this is, you know, these are like medical newsletters that I'm getting, but it's constantly like dairy is protective, dairy is harmful. So we're just gonna kind of investigate that on this episode.

Tina 2:32

Celeste deconstruct dairy. I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the science-y one

LEAH 2:39

and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside

Tina 2:43

And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care

LEAH 2:47

But we're not your doctors

Tina 2:49

This is for education entertainment and informational purposes only

LEAH 2:53

do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor

Tina 2:57

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own

LEAH 3:04

Welcome to the cancer pod

Are humans supposed to drink cow milk?

LEAH 3:22

So in my research, in my investigative reporting into the truth about dairy, I came upon the coolest article, um, which I know you haven't had a chance to read yet, but it's called Why Humans Have Evolved to Drink Milk, because that has often been my question, like, why do we drink the milk of another animal? I just think that's

Tina 3:48

Well, it.

LEAH 3:49

It's very weird. Um, but it's kind of cool because we've only been drinking milk for like, within the past 10,000 years. And it kind of started with those like the, the farmers and the, you know, what do you call them, I guess shepherds or, you know, people minding the pastures. they're the who kind of started it cuz they started domesticating animals and there was something that pointed out. Cows are really docile. there's, I think there was another article that was like, why do we drink cow milk more than like goat or other animals? And it's because cows are really docile and they also produce large quantities of milk, whereas goats, you have to, you know, you don't get as much sheep, you really don't get a lot. apparently reindeer are really hard to hold down, you know, to keep tame. People do drink reindeer milk. But yeah, no, it was very, it was very, very interesting to kind of learn the history behind why in the first place we started drinking milk. And if you think about it, if you're living somewhere and maybe the water isn't good or maybe there isn't a lot of water, you can get fluid, you can get nutrition from the milk of another animal. So I mean, there is a survival element, especially because milk does have a lot of protein and a lot of calories.

Tina 5:05

was at this conference, I'm in the back row cause that's where I always sit But I was sitting next to this woman, she's. Well into her eighties. She's a professor at some university down in Texas, and she's a nutritionist all over her life, or dietician, all of her life. Um, they were talking about dairy and remember her looking at me and saying, well, dairy is the one food that is a complete food. All around people could survive on dairy. Like if you could just, you could survive on dairy, if you could tolerate it. Of course, I mean, lactose intolerance, people cannot survive on it, but assuming you can digest it. But she said as far as composition goes, it's one of the few things that's complete. It's complete protein, it's complete and fats, it's complete and carbohydrates. And I just looked at her like it's never occurred to me to think of dairy that way. So I just thought this was interesting cuz she's gone through so many different phases of, you know, milk being good for you. It does a body good.

LEAH 5:56

Oh right. That was good marketing.

Tina 5:58

was really good market.

LEAH 5:59

So you kind

What is lactase?

LEAH 6:00

of brought up like not everyone can tolerate. You know, dairy products, some people can tolerate like yogurt and cheese, but not necessarily drinking milk itself. And yeah, that has to do with lactase, which is the reason why certain populations can tolerate dairy products better than others is because of evolution and what they call lactase persistence, which I thought was kind of cool.

Tina 6:23

Lactase persistence, meaning that the enzyme in the gut that breaks up lactose is handed down generation to generat.

LEAH 6:31

Yeah,

Tina 6:32

Got it. Okay.

LEAH 6:33

and there was something in that article from the BBC that talked about how in Mongolia, oh, what do they drink? I think it's the yak milk maybe, but they drink it fermented. And so that would make it more. Tolerated because the article actually did say, like for the people in Western Europe who first started drinking milk, they probably farted a lot because it wasn't until, you know, the people who had more lactase, because lactase is that enzyme that breaks down the lactose in the milk. Um, babies have a lot of that. And then as you grow older, it decreases. And then think about cancer treatments and the effect they have on the GI system. And so, I mean, how many patients have said to you, Oh, I used to tolerate milk and now I can't because of those enzymes are no longer, hanging out, doing

Tina 7:23

Yeah. So, and I wanna interject here that enzymes, you know, I think a lot of people in our world, my patients I know have always, when they hear the word enzymes, they think pancreas. They think of pancreatic enzymes. But there's a whole host of enzymes that are made by your small intestine. It's called the brush border. And. Lactase is one of those enzymes. It's made by the brush border cells along your small intestine. And so that area, as you just said, gets damaged by chemotherapy cuz it's rapidly dividing cells along that area. And the chemo is indiscriminate about killing, rapidly dividing cells. And so what results is you lose the ability to make lactase sometimes This is. Short-lived, right? There's a transient loss. But sometimes when you lose the ability to make lactase, you also lose the ability to make other brush border enzymes. And those might be enzymes involved in digesting broccoli or beans you know, those classic gassy foods. But lactase is our topic today. So I just wanna, I wanna put that out there cuz I. it helps people to understand that the chemo damaged your gut. and that it can come back over time. You just have to treat it well.

LEAH 8:31

And then surgeries and radiation also, if it's to that area, you know, it's gonna have more of a permanent effect. And so I think, you know, touching on this whole, like lactose intolerance, we wanna make sure people don't confuse that with a dairy allergy or sensitivity that's completely different. That's not, you know, you can't just pop some lactide and you're all.

Tina 8:52

Yes. And so just to put a cap on this lactase and lactose intolerance, lactase is the enzyme that comes in. The little lactate is lactase enzyme that people are lacking. It can be transient, like we just mentioned with chemo. It can also be genetic, right? So if you're certain, if you're from certain. Heritages, if you're from certain continents, your people, um, you're more likely to have a genetic trait that results in you not making lactase because your ancestors didn't drink milk

LEAH 9:22

And. Itself. Just as you get older you just naturally start producing less because adults really aren't, they don't need You know, like adults really don't need to drink milk, is what I'm

Tina 9:34

to survive.

LEAH 9:36

To survive. Cheese is a whole nother story.

Tina 9:40

Nice.

LEAH 9:42

You need the cheese.

Tina 9:45

All right, so, so if that's lactose intolerance, that's the intolerance to the carbohydrate, the sugar The lactose is a sugar in milk. Some people cannot tolerate, and those are lactose intolerant people. That's totally separate from the sensit.

LEAH 9:58

Or the allergy. Yeah,

Tina 10:00

the allergy. So there's, there's many ways of reacting to dairy. Wait, you know, you and I should probably do full disclosure here. Do you eat dairy?

LEAH 10:08

yeah. I eat cheese and yogurt. Yeah. I do not drink milk. We know why. Go back to some previous episode where I told my story about why I do not drink milk. It's when I was a kid in Spain. I just didn't wanna tell the story again.

Tina 10:22

Okay.

LEAH 10:22

The the warm milk with the milk, with the sugar cube.

Tina 10:26

Yeah. Sounds disgusting.

LEAH 10:27

Yeah. Disgusting. So, yeah, I don't, I do not drink milk. Um, I drink like milk with a y. But I don't even drink that. I think it's weird. Milk is like a vehicle for things. It's a vehicle for cereal and you know, you make a latte with it or something.

Tina 10:42

Yes. And I do also drink dairy.

LEAH 10:45

You

Tina 10:45

No, well, I put half and half in my coffee.

LEAH 10:48

Oh,

Tina 10:48

I do cheese and I do yogurt, but I don't drink milk. You're right. It's not something that would occur to me. It's also a lot of calories that I would never just use on a glass of milk. I'd rather be doing cheese if I'm gonna do that. Money calories.

LEAH 11:01

See, I know it's, it's hard to talk down on cheese when you, you eat cheese when you

Tina 11:06

Right, right. So that's why I said full disclosure,

LEAH 11:09

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Tina 11:11

Every person comes with biases, and so we gotta throw that out there so people are like, are these vegans? You know,

LEAH 11:18

Are these those crazy vegans? Talking their propaganda about? About dairy? No. No, not at all.

Tina 11:25

not that there's anything wrong with that. If you're vegan, please, please proceed.

LEAH 11:29

No, no. We're not being down on vegans in any way. But we both love our cheese. Um, and I was gonna say something. I don't remember what it was. It's ok. What was I gonna say? It was something about cheese. I don't know.

What is a dairy allergy?

Tina 11:44

So, okay, so we talked about the carbohydrate aspect. We, you know, the lactose, the main sugar in there, which is a carbohydrate. We can move on to the protein aspect of the milk.

LEAH 11:55

And that is where the allergy comes

Tina 11:56

Mm-hmm.

LEAH 11:57

Yeah.

Tina 11:58

Yes. So allergies, generally the immune system can mount an antibody to proteins from the milk, and that's usually Caine or whe. And this is where people have overt allergies, like actual skin rashes, eczema, that's a common allergy. So for some people who have eczema, just removing dairy for a little while, gotta give it at least a month. And you have to be, I have to tell people this, when you're dealing with it a. To a protein, when you're talking about an immune reaction, you have to give it more than just a week because what you're waiting for is the antibodies that you've already made that are circulating in your bloodstream to. Fall apart. They enter a system in your body, and antibodies eventually all fall apart. Technically, it takes about three months to really get them all out, but usually people see a difference in about a month if it's you're talking about their skin. So you make different types of antibodies, and the one that causes the rash is called ig. E as an Edward. And it's easy to test, but really it's cheaper just to remove the dairy product for a month and see what happens. If you have a. That's the, that's the first one I think of. Cause it's obvious and it's easy. And why not try that?

LEAH 13:10

Well, that's kinda like one of the things, the very few things I remember about. My pediatrics class was when I was in school was for kids who have, chronic ear infections. Just stop the dairy and see what

Tina 13:23

Amazing.

LEAH 13:24

I mean, kids go through, you know, getting tubes put in their ears and all of this, and it's like if you just cut out the dairy and see, did that make a difference? So,

Tina 13:31

I think that works over half of the time. Like I think that over 50% of the time, I mean, when you're a clinician, you often think in terms of that, like what's gonna be the most reliable and simplest thing to do out of the gates. And so we're always playing with these odds ratios in our head, and I would even put that at 70 to 80% of the time that works just taking dairy out for these little kids with chronic ear infections.

LEAH 13:50

And it's simple for us to say as clinicians, but when you present that to a parent who, that's what the kid drinks all the time, that's what they live on, you know, kind of thing. It's really not always an easy thing to take out of their diet, and I see that with, you know, my patients as well. I live in a very dairy forward part of the country. Which is great for us cheese lovers. Okay. There's some really good cheese out here. Um, but yeah, I remember like we ask our dieticians for like calcium intakes and they pretty much just look at dairy and some people consume a heck of a lot of dairy out here. so yeah, it's kind of hard and I've had conversations back when I was a resident, you know, talking to patients about dairy, and then they're like, oh, I'm a dairy farmer, and you're like, oh, we'll cut back on it anyways, you know?

Tina 14:47

It's a tougher thing to do to make dietary changes against the dominant culture. You know, if you're in, you know, the part of the country where they're milking cows and everybody's a dairy farmer and everyone's eating cheese and drinking milk and fermenting, and. Enjoying it. Um, the question is, is it worth it or not? my take on that is always people are adults and they can make the decision, is it worth your time and effort or not? You know, you only know that once you take it out completely and then see how you do if you have symptoms that you wanna know. So I'm not a huge tester. Just on that note, I just. Take it out for a month, see how you feel. You know, do you wake up and you suddenly don't have to blow your nose every morning because you have less mucus congestion? Or you know, even if you live in Dairyland, U s A, um, your health is worth it, I think. And if you're a listener, I think you probably lean that way too.

LEAH 15:36

Yeah. And by presenting it for just stopping it, for holding it for a month, you're not saying cut it out altogether. The person will make their decision based on how they feel. And you know, nowadays there are a lot of options for dairy alternatives. Which, you know, if patients are like, I'm no longer am tolerating this product, that's milk. You know, you can have different options to talk to them about. and it's kind of like, depends on what their needs are as to like what you would recommend. You know, like if somebody's really trying to gain a lot of weight and they're not doing animal milk product, then you can maybe do like, like the canned coconut milk, super high fat. You're gonna get a lot of calories in there. soy milk has a great amount of protein, know.

Tina 16:21

Yes. I'm gonna put a caveat on these that your best bet when you're buying an alternative milk, if you must buy an alternative milk, is to make sure there's not many things on that ingredient list.

LEAH 16:30

Especially if you have a lot of GI issues to start, you wanna make sure there's not a lot of like random weirdness in there. they're often are, um, fortified with vitamins. They'll be fortified with. You know, vitamin D or, some of them have B vitamins in them, so, but yeah, just make sure that it's not a huge list. Make sure that it's whatever the product is, oats or whatever. Oats is another good caloric one. Um, peas are higher. Protein two p milk, like p

Tina 17:01

milk.

LEAH 17:02

Milk, Milk,

Tina 17:03

No, I was like, that sounds disgusting, but Oh, okay.

LEAH 17:06

like, like peas.

Tina 17:07

Mm-hmm. I've never seen P Milk.

LEAH 17:10

I have, I don't remember where. Yeah, maybe Whole Foods

Tina 17:14

I think the term milk is misleading. With all these things though, I will say they really should just put the word beverage. Yeah, they should do something else. I, it's not milk.

LEAH 17:22

With, with coconut milk. The coconut milk beverage is the stuff you buy in a box or in like the carton. And then coconut milk is the stuff you get in the can that's actually like straight out of the coconut beverage has had something done to it to make it so it's not separated. But yeah, even on the, on the cheese front, there are other options. Um, Which aren't necessarily good for you. I think I've seen some recipes recently for like fermented cashew cheese, like spread that is very few ingredients and it actually, I've been wanting to try it, um, cuz it is a fermented, cashew product so it, you

Tina 17:56

Yeah. This is where we insert the real food. You want real food? I mean, ideal.

LEAH 18:01

Yeah cuz some of those, some of those, alternative dairy products are, they're just

Tina 18:06

They're just gross. Yeah. If it's processed food, it's processed food and just try not to do that too often or not at all if you can help it. Yeah. Processed food is processed food, even if it has organic on the label.

LEAH 18:17

Yeah. Even though it's in the health food.

Tina 18:19

Yeah, so can I, can I insert here? This is, this is a nice point. With these proteins, we're still kind of, I'm gonna circle us back to proteins. The casing in the way that people do mount an actual immune response to the IgE reaction might be obvious because it's an overt allergy, like a rash. The IgE G reaction. It has a sneaky one, and it just can increase inflammation in the body, systemic inflammation. So wherever someone might have inflammation, that's where they would notice it. And so I use something like osteoarthritis, which is garden variety, arthritis of aging as a barometer of how much inflammation is in someone's body. So, um, IgG G is a slow set, 24 hours, 48 hours, even up to 72 hours before you react to foods that create an IgG reaction, which is separate from that immediate reaction of IgE. And these are two different types of antibodies. IG I should clarify IG stands for immunoglobulin, which is, it's a fancy term for antibody. So immunoglobulin means antibody. Anyways, back to the IgG G. You really don't know that it's happening in real time. You don't have a dairy product and then ache or have a dairy product and then have mucus right away. Generally speaking, it'll take a day to three days to set in. So you have to remove that for a longer term. And the New York Times just. Peace on food sensitivities. And this would be considered what we would call to someone a food sensitivity where they have a reaction to the food and they're sensitive to it, but it's not a classic allergy as in rash, anaphylaxis, whatever. So food sensitivities. It was a kind of a hit piece in the New York Times a few days ago. We'll link to it in the notes, but uh, definitely had a lot of comments back where the readership said, yeah, well, you. You can say all you want about the science, but I took it out, I feel better. I took it out. I don't have these symptoms. Whatever the experimentation was with the elimination of dairy and then challenging it by bringing it back in the diet and people resume symptoms. So yeah. I'm gonna, we'll, we'll link to the New York Times piece cuz it's w it was very interesting, very negative on the whole idea of food sensitivities, which I think, you know, this is a classic trying to. The art of medicine and the soft science into a hard science box, and it's not gonna work. It's just not gonna happen. So, um, I guess we can talk about the rest of the ways we, one can be sensitive to it and how dairy relates to cancer, and that is what we're here for.

LEAH 20:50

Yeah, we're here. We're here to talk about like what is the association, if any, between dairy and cancer.

Tina 20:57

Right? Well, okay. So peripherally systemic inflammation has to do with.

LEAH 21:02

Well, it's, I dunno,

Tina 21:07

I know we try to, we try to take down systemic inflammation.

LEAH 21:10

I don't, I don't want it to be that, oh, I have a sensitivity to dairy, therefore that's why I got my cancer. Um, it's, it's more nuanced than that if there is a relationship at all. What we what, okay, we're gonna cut to a break, but before we do these studies are, um, epidemiological.

Tina 21:31

just rolled off your.

LEAH 21:32

There was a pause. There was a pause cuz I wasn't able to say that off air previously, but. They're population studies. And so those kinds of studies cannot be taken as gospel, I suppose, because there's so many different nuances involved in, um, in how people live and how people eat. And they do try to do calculations to account for these different differences, these different differences for these differences. Um, but at the same time, Yeah. Anyways, well, let's, let's cut to a break and then we'll come back and we'll talk about what one of the possibilities is that might link dairy with cancer. And then we'll kind of talk about, um, I don't know, whatever else comes to mind.

Tina 22:14

All right, let's do that.

How about the fats in dairy?

Tina 22:24

All right. So we talked a little bit about the protein and people being sensitive to that. We talked a little bit about the carbohydrate lactose and that being a very clear intolerance for some people. Um, fatty acids, that's the last macronutrient that's left, is the fats in the milk. So what do we know about that?

LEAH 22:42

Well, they're saturated fats, um, which. From animal products are not necessarily a great thing. and then there also is, conjugated linoleic acid, c l a, which is in Omega six, and I have had people ask me about that with relation to weight loss. Because apparently there is a product that's marketed that it's helps with weight loss, but that is, I know people think about Omega six and they're like really down on them, but it's not a bad thing. C l a is not necessarily a bad thing in your diet.

Tina 23:20

Yeah. Well, and Omega six s do get a bad wrap because of processed food using a whole lot of corn or soybean or whatever. These vegetable oils tend to be behind omega six, so our ratio is way off, right. Omega six to. Omega three, so I think that's why they get a bad rap. But Omega six technically is also an essential fatty acid. We have to eat them, we just eat too much of them and not enough of the Omega three s and we throw everything off that way. We being Western diet people, that's what I mean by we, not me personally.

LEAH 23:52

Not the royal we here. Well, no, the royal we. We as a, we as a nation.

Tina 23:57

We as a nation eat too much processed food, and it's one of the reasons we think processed food. One of the many reasons processed food is linked to higher cancer incidents. So that is, definitely in those population studies right now. People who eat more processed food have more cancer of various types. I won't even list the arm length list of different cancers that processed food is.

LEAH 24:18

And probably also lack of nutrients that are in there, right.

Tina 24:21

Well, that's what processing is about. Yeah.

LEAH 24:24

Well, you take out the nutrients and then you put some in. Okay. But we don't wanna, we don't wanna go off on a whole nother tangent here.

Tina 24:29

No, but, but we will say that processing food is to give it a longer shelf life, which means nothing can live on it, which means you can't live on it either.

LEAH 24:36

which is why I was thinking that in Mongolia, they were fermenting the milk so that it would have a longer

Tina 24:44

Absolutely. That's what fermentation is always about.

LEAH 24:47

But I thought that was kind of cool.

Tina 24:49

why fermentation and culturing exists. Yes.

LEAH 24:52

I know, but it's just like, like how come more people didn't ferment their milk? I guess they did, right? They, they, they made yogurt or, you know, different cheeses or whatnot. But, um, no, I just like, it was just one of those like moments that clicked, cuz I don't think of like, I guess Keifer and all of that as fermented milk, but it just was like, Yeah, if you're living out in the middle of nowhere and really no way of keeping your food, let's just ferment it instead of drinking it straight outta the yack.

Tina 25:21

Yeah, right. Either raw right then that day or you have to do something like fermented. Um, it's one of the reasons when I talk about heritage diets with people, I'm like, if you can go all the way back to pre refrigeration, that's what you're actually looking towards. You really wanna go a ways back many generations if you possibly can to see how they preserve the food, cuz that's probably the foods you should be most in line with biologically. All right, we digress again.

LEAH 25:45

Yeah. It's a dairy digression. Um, oh, and so something else. Um, going back to our whole lactase conversation, lactose conversation. Cream actually has less lactose cream and butter are lower in lactose. And um, yeah, the aged cheeses, like Parmesan cheese, I think is like one of the most tolerated, you know, as long as someone doesn't have reactions to like histamines, which is a whole nother story.

Tina 26:13

Oh my gosh. We natch pass. We complicate this so much, right? Like

LEAH 26:17

I know, I know. But you know, for somebody who's lactose intolerant, Parmesan might be the thing. And I used to think that mozzarella was like higher mozzarella. That's a good, that's not a New Yorker talking. Um, I used to think it was really high in lactose, just cuz I personally do not tolerate it. But apparently it's not, it's actually very low in

Dairy and cancers

LEAH 26:37

lactose. Okay, so cancer, we're here to talk about dairy and cancer and like what is the deal. So I think the big thing for people to know about is something called I G F one.

Tina 26:50

Insulin-like growth factor.

LEAH 26:54

Yes. And so that is, something that's found in animal protein. And has been implicated when there's an increased amount of circulating IGF one. It's been implicated in carcinogenesis.

Tina 27:11

a good friend of mine, Jacob Shore, did a lecture on IGF one years ago to a bunch of naturopaths. We have a national association, that has a annual meeting in any case. He went through this whole population who genetically are predisposed to not make, they actually literally, they just don't make much IGF one at all and they are very short. Um, because IGF one leads to more stature

LEAH 27:36

Because it's

Tina 27:36

It's a growth factor.

LEAH 27:37

Yeah, it's a growth factor. That's what I meant. I knew it's in the

Tina 27:40

I knew that.

LEAH 27:41

I knew my words.

Tina 27:45

In any case, it's fascinating because there is this population, I believe it was in South America, where genetically they don't make it and they're shorter and they have a lot, lot less cancer. On the flip side, we think that high amounts of I G F one has to do with the data that we do see where people who. Very tall. Do have more, and no colorectal cancer is higher than those folks.

LEAH 28:10

I think prostate cancer is as well, because I remember seeing that as a risk factor. I'm like, that is interesting.

Tina 28:17

Assumed that connection that might have to do with the IGF one throughout their life. we don't know that for a fact, but it's cuz it's population based studies, right? So you're watching populations, you're really surmising things. You're not proving them, you're not really scientifically validating anything. You're just observing and making connections and correlations. So the classic saying is, correlation does not mean causation. Right. So we just have to be careful with extrapolating cause from something that's just associa.

LEAH 28:44

Well, when I was, um, going through treatment, and I have talked about it numerous times, including in our fasting episode. And my oncologist at the time was doing a study on, fasting around chemo. One of the things that they were measuring, was IGF one.

Tina 29:02

Mm. Interest.

LEAH 29:03

Yeah. So, you know, there, there is information out there, but does that directly tie dairy to causing cancer?

Tina 29:15

Yeah, that's a good question. And it might depend on the person's cancer, not just the type, but the subtype.

LEAH 29:21

Right. And so the types of cancer that have been, there's been some possible population study showing, maybe there's a correlation are gastric, prostate, ovarian, and non-Hodgkin lymphoma. Um, breast, it goes back and forth. and then it's not necessarily like dairy across the board. Like with breast, it was that there was a study showing that milk increase the risk, but then yogurt and cheese decrease the risk.

Tina 29:52

this was a observational study of a

LEAH 29:54

Yeah. These are, I mean, it's not like they're gonna stick people in a lab and then have them only eat these foods. I mean, you know, it's just a, we just don't do studies like that.

Tina 30:04

My, my visual went straight to like sticking people in a lab and having like a running wheel and the whole bit like with a, but only with people.

LEAH 30:11

That'd be kind of fun.

Tina 30:14

Um, so one of the things with breast cancer specifically that I remember is, This is weird, but IGF one can directly bind to the estrogen receptor and stimulate it. So IGF one is something that has been shown with certain breast cancers, specifically estrogen receptor positive breast cancers. It does look like IGF one is implicated in. Spurring the growth a little bit like an estrogen molecule can, and this becomes most important for women who are on aromatase inhibitors, who otherwise have very, very low estrogen. You know those aromatase inhibitors pretty much tank. Estrogen production. So anything that can stimulate the estrogen receptor in those people is of concern. So I would say those are the people I'm so careful with as far as blood sugar control. Cause IGF one tends to go up, it's insulin-like growth factor and it does tend to follow insulin and tends to follow. People with high glucose levels will have higher IGF one often. Besides people who eat it, you know, if you ingest IGF one from milk or from meat or whatever. Um, not to make people paranoid, but just to make people more aware of the reason there's so many nuances in the data is that's a very specific subset of a population where I would be more aggressive about controlling IGF one ingestion, just because there's data showing that it can directly stimulate the estrogen.

LEAH 31:42

So definitely controlling blood sugar, which I talked to the majority of my patients about in general. Um, and then in that population you would advise them to really limit their dairy consumption,

Tina 31:55

I would, yeah, I would in that subpopulation. And uh, and, and you know, what I tend to do is try to update when I'm seeing a patient, I tend to go back through the research and update it and say, is there any reason, you know, I happen to know that one. There might be other cancers this is relevant for, that have various receptors, but IGF one is, uh, is pretty clear. I mean, that's not. It's not a mystery. We already know that it can bind to the estrogen receptor I always assume cancer is smart. That's just one of my assumptions people who have existing cancer especially, is that it has its own little survival mechanism, is how I think of it. It's like those cells wanna survive and if their only possibility is to figure out how to bind IGF one, they're gonna figure it out over time. So this is why it's it's a Wiley. opponent cancer, because it does have some kind of, in my mind, biological survival instinct. Scary but true.

LEAH 32:46

It's stupid. Cancer is stupid, but

Tina 32:48

Yeah. Yeah. Stupid cancer.

LEAH 32:51

Yeah.

Prostate cancer specifically...

LEAH 32:52

So with prostate cancer, I think that was probably one of the most recent articles that popped up in my, my email was talking about prostate cancer, but it was more emphasizing the importance of a plant-based diet,

Tina 33:05

Mm-hmm.

LEAH 33:05

Um, and then in a plant-based diet, you. Naturally have less dairy products. So it what, from what I was reading, there was nothing that pointed its finger directly at dairy. It was more just emphasizing the importance of plants.

Tina 33:23

sense. Well, and for prostate cancer, it does look like there are certain byproducts of dairy and meat that might be particularly bad. They're called, um, Putin,

LEAH 33:35

Mm. That sounds

Tina 33:37

isn't it? Um, it's exactly what it sounds like. They are kind of gnarly smelling. They're putrid, but, um, in our bodies, we make them from the meats. We create putri scenes, and it's a kind of a part of some of our cycles. Methionine is the top of the cycle. That's that methionine hoisting cycle. So this gets pretty deep, and we can talk biochemistry in another venue. But every cancer is different. Every metabolic process in the subtype of the cancer is different. And so I bet dairy is harmful for some and not for others. I, the god's honest truth is taking it out is not gonna be harmful as long as you get your requisite proteins, carbohydrates, and fats in your day. So yeah, this might be why vegan diets when you're dealing with cancer, especially active cancer, leaning towards. Making animal products. The exception, not the rule, makes a heck of a lot more sense. And if you can live vegan, great. If you could get all your nutrients in, and you must be a mindful vegan, you can't just say, I'm gonna cut off all animal products and go on your merry way. You have to make sure that you make a concerted effort to get your requisite protein, carbs, fats, and nutrients in every day that.

LEAH 34:46

So,

How about colorectal cancer?

LEAH 34:47

is the effect of dairy, is it something, you know, like let's say for colorectal cancer, right? Dairy has been shown to be more protective, but is it the dairy or is it the calcium? And I think that's one thing is that people, when I ask patients, and I don't expect them to know all the foods that have calcium, but like, I'm like, oh, do you eat a calcium rich diet? In my mind I'm thinking like dark, leafy green vegetables and nuts and things like that. And they're like, oh no, I don't really eat a lot of dairy. Or Yeah, I eat a lot of dairy. And so it's like, I think that's really separating, um, like. Is calcium protective or is it something else in the dairy? And I guess that would be the same with, you know, these different cancers that potentially, possibly may, you know, be influenced by dairy consumption. Um, like what part of the dairy is it? Is it, is it, um, something that is affecting the hormone levels, whether, you know, in a hormone, um, positive type cancer like breast or prostate. Um, or is there something else that's going on?

Tina 35:53

Right. Right. I know with the colorectal cancer, I would assume any calcium source would be protective of colorectal cancer incidents. So we have really good data and it's the World Health Organization has put this out where they have found that calcium all around, people who consume more calcium have lower risk of. Their first diagnosis of colorectal cancer. Um, I think this is because calcium binds some of the bile salts in the gut in the colon, and there are some toxic compounds made from some of the bile salts that is, that are implicated in colorectal cancer. So the bile goes down the gut and long story short, Metabolically becomes a carcinogen, um, in the colon, and that is implicated in the incidence of colorectal cancer. But if calcium is around, calcium binds that salt and it renders. Impossible to make that carcinogen. So they think that this might be one of the reasons that calcium intake in any form, and that includes calcium as a supplement and any form can be protective of colorectal cancer incidents. That's what I've read I've read a lot about colorectal cancer, probably more than other cancers. There's a few cancers that I've probably gone more than knee deep, probably neck deep in researching.

LEAH 37:10

Well, I think, you know, kind of going back to like the whole, uh, growth factor, part of, of dairy,

What's rBGH?

LEAH 37:17

I think we need to mention, something that, you know, you'll often see on a package of cheese or on some sort of dairy product. it'll say, does not contain or was not raised with, R B G H or R B S T and that's, recombinant bovine growth hormone or recombinant bovine soma trophin. And so that is something that is, if you're listening in another country, I know in Canada and Europe, those. Used this country, um, it is used to increase milk production and it potentially can increase because it is a growth hormone. It could potentially increase IGF one. And then one of the, things that can also increase is like health problems in the cows and that may contribute to them getting like mastitis. Um, and so, Mean that they would get more antibiotics, and then is there something in that itself that might be creating something harmful? Um, and it's easy to find these days. And, you know, it's kind of up to you if, if that is a concern. But there are plenty of products that are organic or not organic, that are using milk that does not have this added,

Is raw milk safe?

LEAH 38:37

hormone.

Tina 38:38

Mm-hmm. Yeah. If someone is so lucky as to be able to get grass fed, grass finished, cleanly sourced milk from a neighbor down the road, or the co-op or the buying group, I know there's buying groups that can get around some of the state laws that require pasteurization to put it on the shelf, at least in Oregon, you have to have it pasteurized to put it on a shelf in a store. It must be pasteurized, but some of that raw milk is pretty cool stuff. I mean, if you can get it cleanly sourced, it must be done Responsib.

LEAH 39:08

Yeah, I don't, I don't encourage, I don't encourage my patients going through active treatment to do anything, um,

Tina 39:15

Oh no, not during active treatment, but the, you know, during active treatment, you're not, you shouldn't be doing anything that's even remotely, um, smacks of as something that could be infectious, you know? So you should be washing your raw fruits differently too. I mean, during treatment, I totally agree, but after treatment, I mean, raw milk is kind of a perfect, if you're gonna do milk and you have access to it, it's pretty, you just have to make sure it's done responsibly. Don't buy it from some

LEAH 39:39

Outta the back of a

Tina 39:39

unknown person. Yeah. If it's a wayside truck that just opened up their gate and said, raw milk, don't do that. Maybe. Maybe make it a little better source. But that's what our great grandparents, you know, like if you do have ancestors that ate milk, they didn't, they had raw milk a lot. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it's done well and you can make buttermilk from that very easily on your counter and you know, it's pretty cool cuz it ferment itself. You're looking at me like I wouldn't do it.

LEAH 40:09

No, I know, I, you know what? I tried buttermilk not too long ago, and it was actually really tasty. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I don't know cuz I wouldn't drink, I wouldn't drink milk no matter what

Tina 40:19

Have you ever, but you can from raw milk, you can make your own soft cheese.

LEAH 40:22

I have made, I have made cheese. I have, but not from cow milk. From goat milk. I have made, um, yeah, soft cheese using milk straight out of the goat. And of course you heat it up. I mean you heat it up for a long period of time and you know, you add your like lemon juice. But yeah, I remember when I learned how to make cheese, I felt like I had some sort of superpower

Tina 40:43

Mm-hmm.

LEAH 40:44

I mean it was just super simple. It was goats milk and um, and lemon and then you add the little spices and herbs at the end. But no, it was delicious.

Tina 40:52

Yeah. And, and the truth is milk doesn't spoil It only spoils because we've pasteurized it and now we have weird things growing in it, and it gets sour and nasty. But raw milk becomes buttermilk,

LEAH 41:05

Well, it does. It. It's, that's how it spoils. It spoils by fermenting.

Tina 41:09

But Right. It's not spoiled, it's fermented. It's spoiled when it's an undesirable organism. it's fermented. When it's desirable. Either way, something's growing. But, uh, what I'm saying is if you do it from raw, from raw milk, it's a desirable fermentation product. It's the nasty stuff we get at the store That spoils.

LEAH 41:27

But isn't that the whole point of pasteurization is to prevent it from spoiling?

Tina 41:30

Is it?

LEAH 41:33

Are we putting our, our, our conspiracy hats on now?

Tina 41:36

Wait, I gotta get my aluminum hat just a

LEAH 41:39

Okay. Wait, no, we, we gotta kinda like, let's like summarize here

Tina 41:43

All right, let's do

LEAH 41:44

are just like, what the heck is this episode? They're like, I really wanted to know the facts about dairy and cancer and I don't, there's, there's really nothing that is definitive.

Tina 41:56

No, I can't say there's anything definitive. I will say that it's like everything else. We do as adults, there's risk and then there's benefit and you have to weigh your risk and benefit for yourself. There's no black and white to this at all cuz there's really no way to say it always does good or it always does bad. There's just, it's not possible. We are too biochemically different. Every individual is different. And then, If someone's had a cancer diagnosis, now you've gotten, every cancer is different, so you've got a hugely complex array of variables that you cannot possibly put a yes or no answer on. Now, I will caveat that with. People who believe that it's non-ethical to milk a cow will be absolute no. Right? Like, they're like, it's not fair to the cow. We shouldn't be taking their milk. You know, there are, there is a subset of people who believe that, and that's fine. I mean, everyone has their ethical standards and I can respect that. But other than, you know, ethical reasons, I can't think of any must do or can't do that. We can say uniformly across the board for every.

What does Harvard say about dairy consumption?

LEAH 42:59

I do wanna point out, because I always found this really interesting, I often refer to, the Harvard website, like their, um, Public health, you know, for people who wanna get some information on nutrition. you can also look at A I C R, um, which stands for, American Institute for Cancer Research?

Tina 43:21

Yeah, that's it.

LEAH 43:23

My God, the brain just left the, the body. Um, but what I find really interesting about Harvard, like they have their own healthy eating plate. And unlike the one that's produced by the F D A, that a lot of schools go by, it doesn't include dairy on their plate. They do list later down with like sodas and juices and dairy. They're like, you know, limit to one to two servings a day. But I just think that's really interesting that, um, putting my tin foil hat on as to the reasons as to why dairy has really been pushed, especially in our culture.

Tina 43:59

I will vouch for that. Yes, it gets pushed at the dietician conferences.

LEAH 44:05

Well, I mean, it gets pushed at schools and, and in commercials and those kinds of things and, you know, advertising. So, um, when patients ask me, does dairy increase my risk of cancer, I still say no because we don't know. Um, if somebody says that they are, you know, taking in. 4,000 milligrams. Well, you know, we calculate and they're doing 4,000 milligrams of calcium, and that's from dairy products alone. I advise that person to cut back, um, more because I want diversity in their diet. But yeah, I don't think that this is something where we can, you know, cut or dry. Cut or dry. Mm-hmm. Where we can say one way or the other. What I did find interesting is I started to approach other people, who are experts in their field about what is in, you know, let's say like Chinese

What's the Chinese Medicine perspective?

LEAH 45:04

medicine. Like what is there a benefit to having dairy? Is there a risk to having dairy? And kind of like what you're saying, I was like, it depends on the individual. So in Chinese medicine, the perspective is completely different. they look at, you know, like deficiencies or excess of of chi, for example. And so somebody who is yin deficient dairy might actually be beneficial.

Tina 45:30

Mm-hmm.

LEAH 45:31

Um, because it, it's, it can be very nourishing. So, you know, it's, it kind of depends on, and I'm sure it's the same like in Ayurveda, like depending on what the person's dosha is, what their constitution is, is whether or not dairy would be appropriate for them. And it may just be like, at that moment in time, it's not like, oh yeah, it's good for you at all times. Like, I know in Ayurveda it's very seasonal as to when. Certain doshas do better or worse with dairy products. So it, I mean, it's, even in traditional medicines, there's no absolute answer. That's kind of what I'm putting out for people who are like really, you know, completely holistic minded. Um, there's no definite answer in the science or in the traditional.

Tina 46:19

So if someone, if a listener is seeing someone who does some of these traditional medicines, whether, whether it's Eastern Asian medicine or anything, you can ask that practitioner what their opinion is on dairy for you, given your constitution and what they see.

LEAH 46:37

And I think the really important question to ask is to ask that practitioner, do you take

Tina 46:43

Yes, it definitely biases.

LEAH 46:45

It really does.

Tina 46:46

I know, I know. It's true.

LEAH 46:49

Yeah, so I think that's the most important question.

Tina 46:52

That's the nature of all healthcare though too. I mean, your doctor, your whoever you're getting advice from, we're all colored by our experience and so no

Wrap up

Tina 47:00

way around that.

LEAH 47:01

Is there anything else? I'm sure we've left out a ton.

Tina 47:05

Well, if we left out a ton, then maybe our listeners can let us know what we didn't answer and we can either answer it on social media or you can always email us, or we'll do the second part, you know, if we get enough questions, we'll just be like, ah, part two, here's all the things we should have said.

LEAH 47:19

Here's all the stuff that we meant to say, but we're gonna have a bunch of links, especially to that article that I mentioned about why humans have evolved to drink milk because I think it's really interesting. I thought the history of food and like. How people came to eat, what they eat is so interesting to me. So yeah, we're definitely sharing that article and some other ones. So check out our show notes and, if you like what you hear, remember to support us by either sharing this episode or dropping us. a couple of, a couple of coins over at Buy Me a Coffee.

Tina 47:56

Yeah, and there's a direct link in our episode notes as well where they can just click on that and it goes straight to our host.

LEAH 48:01

And everywhere you can just find us by, by searching for the cancer pod, it's pretty easy to find us on, social media or buy me a coffee or wherever. Wherever we do roam,

Tina 48:12

the podcasts roam.

LEAH 48:13

we're the podcast's roam. I like that. So on that note, I'm Dr. Leia Sherman,

Tina 48:18

I'm Dr. Tina Kaser

LEAH 48:20

and this is the Cancer Pod.

Tina 48:21

next.

48:23

Thanks for listening to the cancer pod. Remember to subscribe, review and rate us wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on social media for updates, and as always, this is not medical advice. These are our opinions. Talk to your doctor before changing anything related to your treatment plan. The cancer pod is hosted by me, Dr. Lea Sherman. And by Dr. Tina Caer music is by Kevin McLeod. See you next time.