The Truth About.... The "Cure-All" Tea

0:00

welcome to episode 34 of the cancer pod. In this episode, we talk about those cure all teas. They go by different names, but have similar herbal ingredients. Is there any truth to their claims? Listen in and find out.

Tina 0:13

I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the science-y one

Leah 0:17

and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside

Tina 0:21

And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care

Leah 0:25

But we're not your doctors

Tina 0:27

This is for education entertainment and informational purposes only

Leah 0:31

do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor

Tina 0:35

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own

Leah 0:42

Welcome to the cancer pod

Introduction

Tina 1:00

Hey, Tina. Hi, Leah. What

Leah 1:02

if there was a tea that could cure you of pretty much anything that ed you, it can cure cancer aids and it's an overall detoxifying

Tina 1:17

health tonic. Sign me up,

Leah 1:19

right. Sounds too good to be true.

Tina 1:21

Yeah. Yeah. I wish it were true. Wouldn't it be a lot? God, it'd be so awesome. Totally. I wish for such a

Leah 1:28

thing. Well, there, there are some products that are really similar to each other, that claim to be that. And I don't know. I hear quite often patients ask about it. Patients come in taking it. You're

Tina 1:42

talking about the Azac formula and the offshoots of that.

Leah 1:46

Yeah. So the what's Ojibwa T fluorescence Zeak yeah, they're all very similar. and at some point claims have been made to where these have a reputation of being kind of the, the cure, especially the cancer cure, any

Tina 2:03

cancer doesn't matter. Yes. This has been around my entire career. Um, S E T has just always been present kind of always been out there on anecdotal circles of herbal medicine and. General traditional medicine when people are looking for natural medicines will come across Azac at some point.

Leah 2:22

Yeah. So in this episode, we're gonna talk about, you know, what are these formulas? What are their claims? What evidence is out there. About either the individual herbs or, you know, the, the mixtures, the formulas or the formulas themselves. Are they safe? Mm-hmm and you know, that's, that's today's episode, I guess. Well, because you said it's, you know, you've heard of this for your entire career. I mean, it's been around since, I don't know the beginning of the last century.

Background on Essiac

Leah 2:54

Mm-hmm and so yeah. You wanna tell us a little bit about

Tina 2:58

the history, Tina? Yeah. It happens to be a hundred years ago. This year, that Renee Casey, up in Canada, she's a nurse and she worked for a doctor. And the, the story goes that she observed a woman with terminal cancer, turned her cancer around and she asked how, and the woman cured herself reportedly with an herbal remedy, which was given her by an Ojibwe herbalist. So Renee visited. Medicine man. And he gave her the formula and the formula was four simple herbs that supposedly when they're put together and deco, meaning they're boiled together, they create compounds that are unique to this formula that have anti-cancer effects. And so just quickly, those four herbs are sheeps. Burdock root, slippery, Elm and rhubarb root. And then after that, she opened up her own clinic in 1934 in Ontario seeing patients with cancer. And, uh, I know that she got together with a doctor in the United States later on. and I believe she lived until 1978, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. And in the

Leah 4:04

late seventies, she actually gave the formula to a company in Canada, um, they were able to do some studies on it. And according to. NIH their website. It said that she closed her clinic in Canada in late 1942, but she continued to give this se formula, which is her last name spelled backwards. she gave that to patients until the late seventies. And I guess that's when she eventually died.

Tina 4:32

And she worked with that doctor in Massachusetts who went on to continue to use it and somewhere along the way. The basic four herb formula that was given to her, um, four extra herbs were added And that then became fluorescence, which is kind of the liquid version and a eight herb formulation. And

Leah 4:51

then, um, there is a supplement company that makes a product called OJI O T and it's also a different, it's a different combo at some point, the company that made. The se T tried to have it approved as a drug by the FDA, but it never got approval. All right. And I believe this is the product that there's this whole like online. Conspiracy controversy about how I don't remember. Was it like Mayo or Johns Hopkins or somebody apparently had done studies on it and found it cured cancer, but then they put it in the vault. They put it in the basement and they said, no, we don't want a cancer cure. I think this is one of those products.

Tina 5:33

Oh, well, Memorial Sloan Kettering did some work on it in the seventies. Oh, maybe that's

Leah 5:37

it. Maybe it's Memorial Sloan Kettering. Discovered that it indeed cured cancer. And then they hid the data from all of

Tina 5:44

us. Interesting. Well, you know, who was at Memorial Sloan Kettering back in the 1970s is Ralph MOS. Oh, so maybe we should, oh, explain who. Yeah. Explain who Ralph MOS is. Well, he's a PhD. He's not a medical doctor, but he is a PhD. And since his early days at Memorial Sloan Kettering looking at, um, Laya trail studies, then he's always written about the cancer industry and cancer research and integrative cancer care. He's been knee deep in it and he still has publications coming out. I believe he actually just launched a podcast. So maybe we should phone a friend and have Ralph MOS come on and talk about these early days at Memorial Sloan Kettering, when it looks like they were actually really looking at natural agents there, and I don't know what happened, but I know. um, the department, I believe got axed in the mid to late seventies.

Leah 6:33

Maybe it was Lari that they were this conspiracy theory, or maybe it's both. Right. I mean, because

Tina 6:39

yeah, you don't need just one conspiracy theory. No. Why

Leah 6:41

not have more. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like the X files. I think, you know, it's out

Tina 6:45

there. I will say this, you know, if you can't patent something, if you can't, tweak it to. Um, create a drug out of it. It is less appealing to the industry as a whole, so it's not unthinkable except

Leah 6:59

the, the studies that are out there on these products might not really be strong enough to show the information, but we get ahead of ourselves. Um, so yeah, so that's kind of the history and there are different products. I think that because se is probably a proprietary. Formula, which you actually have the formula

Tina 7:22

for. I do have the formula a ZC the name has been trademarked, so it's got that little TM next to it, I believe. And that's owned, but I don't think the formula is hidden. I think that's out and about in various publications out there. So should we take a break and come back and talk about the actual herbs and I usually these formulas and kind of break it down cuz you know, there, there is some good to them. I just wouldn't hang my hat on any of them to actually treat cancer. But doesn't mean they're without virtue. Yeah, let's do that.

7:50

A little shout out to J R Drake who wrote, I have found this podcast very informative and easy to listen to. In a short period of time. I feel I have learned a lot. I will keep tuning in for new episodes. thanks for the great review.

The Herbs...

Tina (2) 8:06

All right, Tina. So we're gonna talk about the different herbs in these kind of cancer cure formulas. And I call it cancer cure because it's one of, this is one of those products that it doesn't matter. What type of cancer somebody has. Someone else will have said. I know someone with cancer and they took this and it helped them. And it doesn't matter if the person they're recommending it to had the same cancer, completely different cancer. It doesn't matter. This is just a product that has a reputation. Mm-hmm for being. Good for any cancer. All right. So we'll go through the herbs and I'm gonna give you the lead on this cuz you're, you're more of an herb person. I love herbs.

Tina 8:47

Herbs are what got me into natural medicine. Yeah, me too. But I just don't

Leah 8:50

use them. So I forgot.

Tina 8:52

All right. So I already mentioned the four herbs for the formula for Azac T right. That was burdock root, Indian RHU. Sheep CIRE and slippery Elm, um, Indian rhubarb, also Turkey, rhubarb. They're kind of interchangeable in the formula. I will read to you the actual formula that Renee Casey used. I don't know if we're saying her name, right. Either. It could be case.

Leah 9:15

We don't even know if we're saying SEIC

Tina 9:17

right. I don't even know how to say naturopathic. Is it nature, pathic or naturopathic? We don't know. we will never know. I'm not sure what I am. Exactly. it's one of those we digress. All right. Anyways, here's the parts by weight. And this

Essiac, the formula

Tina 9:34

was the actual formula 52 parts of burdock root cut, or dried 16 parts of sheep. Ceril powdered one part Turkey, rhubarb, powdered, or. Two parts, domestic rhubarb, and four parts, slippery, Elm, powdered, and those are put together. And so it's mostly burdock root then it really is. Yeah. These are not. When I saw those four herbs, I kind of, in my mind, back in the day, thought they were equal parts until I came across the actual. Recipe. And I was like, oh, it's predominantly burdock root.

Leah 10:07

Yeah. I totally thought there were equal parts too. That is so interesting. Okay.

Burdock Root

Leah 10:11

So, um, let's talk about burdock root. What the

Tina 10:14

heck does it do? um, gobo

Leah 10:16

route. Oh, and it, it, it grows in your, like you, you find it in your garden. Isn't that the, the, in the Northwest

Tina 10:23

I believe it's found in most of the United States. I mean, except for the warmest regions in the deserts and stuff, but burdock It's a weed all over the place. It's got a tap root kind of tough to dig it up. Um, I just remember. Yeah, it's

Leah 10:37

in the backyard and the

Tina 10:38

Portland a yeah, yeah. That's the one it's gotta dis like the leaf,

Leah 10:43

the leaf is kind of like very distinct

Tina 10:45

mm-hmm Huge. Yes, big leaves. And then it gets these burdock balls on it. That gets stuck on your dog if they're going through fields. Hmm. So they grab onto the whatever animals going by or your, or you're closed. Um, in any case that burdock route is known as, you know, one, it's a food stuff in some places, so people use it, but it's also considered a gentle liver cleans. And my recollection is that burdock root is also a decent amount of, what we now call resistant starches. You know, it's got those inlands, but burdock root is, is a gentle plant that supports liver function. That's kind of its traditional use in its claim to fame. So we should use

Leah 11:25

the old school, um, terms for what these, these herbs do. So one of the things that burdock root does is it is an alternative mm-hmm which means that it. Traditionally used to purify blood.

Tina 11:39

Yeah. Which is a not, not something modern scientists talk about. Right. So blood purification is a very much an old school idea in medicine

Leah 11:50

It's often in formulas for, you know, urinary tract disorders. So in that way, it's, I mean, the, the formulas are these they're detoxifying formulas, and I'm using finger quotes. And so by increasing urination, it would be quote. Detoxifying the

Tina 12:10

body cleansing in that sense, cleansing the

Leah 12:13

cleansing, the body through urination, as well as a blood

Tina 12:16

cleanser. Yes. And having it go through the liver and being a gentle stimulation for the liver also leads to that detoxification idea. And when we have something that is supportive for liver function, a traditional. Understanding of that is when you wanna treat skin conditions, you treat the liver. That's how we used to do it back in herbal medicine. When we were treating people as a whole system, you didn't see a dermatologist, you only had your one doctor and that doctor, when you come with a skin condition may give you plants that were good for your liver. And that's how the skin was treated.

Leah 12:52

So that's burdock

Rhubarb

Leah 12:53

root. And then what have we got next

Tina 12:55

rhubarb, good old rhubarb rhubarb,

Leah 12:58

which you grow in your, in your garden and you have with strawberries in a pie.

Tina 13:04

yeah. So apparently the use of rhubarb is like dates back to the BC. I guess we have some documentation, rhubarb being used as a medicine way, way back. and I would say the one reliable action that. All aware of those of us who use plant medicine is a as a gentle laxative. That's really its main usage. And again, it's kind of what you're talking about. You know, things that get you urinating and things that get you having bowel movements. Well, they're supporting detoxification through opening up elimination pathways. So. While the liver can package up and break down things and break down compounds. That might be, like chemical compounds that you might be exposed to. You still have to eliminate them. You have to get them out and they have to leave the body through an opening like your urinary tract or your digestive tract, or it could be your lungs too. Breathing also is an, is an elimination route or sweat.

Leah 13:57

Yeah. And that's what I talked to when, you know, patients, you know, cuz because detox is such a, it's such a hot word, right? I mean, everybody wants to detoxify, they wanted detoxify during cancer treatment. Um, they wanted detoxify after CA cancer treatment and I just talked to them about elimination pathways. I don't say like, oh, these things are gonna, you know, detoxify you and cleanse you of all, all that's accumulated over the, this period of time. I just talk about, make sure that you are peeing, make sure that you're pooping. Um, exercise, make sure you're sweating and you're, you're helping with elimination. If you're constipated and you're going through treatment, you know, that's gonna, it's gonna build up. It's gonna make you feel mm-hmm crappy Yeah. But, um, Yeah. So I don't really like to use the word detox because I think it is pretty loaded, but it's just making sure that you're, you're moving things through. So making sure that you are well hydrated mm-hmm so things pass through your kidneys. Um, and so yeah, rhubarb, um, rhubarb

Sheep Sorrel

Leah 15:05

and the sheep Cill as well. Right. Those make you those make you poop.

Tina 15:09

Yeah. And I know the rhubarb is a stimulant for the gallbladder as well. So it does stimulate. bile production and bile flow. So in that fashion, it also is a gentle laxative. Cuz when we stimulate gallbladder function, we can maintain normal bowel movements that way. So yeah, mm-hmm, sheeps the one I know the least amount about, um, I don't use sheep cer myself and my herbal formulas. I use the others. Um, but I know it's been around forever as. Folk remedy. and yeah, I don't know as much about its anti-cancer actions as I do the other plants. It's just not something that I think it was strong. I think of it's like nourishing a food stuff. I just don't think of it as, as medicinal, as the others. and it might just be my own exposure to the plant.

Slippery Elm

Leah 15:55

And then we have, uh, slippery Elm, which is one of my favorites. Mm-hmm I love slippery

Tina 16:01

Elm. You mean for your personal use or for your patients? Uh,

Leah 16:03

both. Mm. Both. It's nice for, when patients have something like, you know, acid reflux or GERD mm-hmm, you know, it's just soothing it soothing to the, the mouth for mouth sores and it also can help with bowels. It can act both as a laxative as well as it can slow things down. If someone's having diarrhea, it just depends on how much you use. Yeah.

Tina 16:25

Yeah. It's very, um, it's a mucilage. So it's, Musil, AOUS, it's slippery. you know, mu it's mucusy almost right when you put it with water. So I, I think if people know that and you picture that, you can see how it kind of soothes the whole upper GI tract and then can go on to soThe the lower GI tract as well, and help things go

Leah 16:43

through. And there is some controversy with using. Slippery Elm in general. Like, and I know it's not used in this formula, but in other formulas, people often recommend to use marshmallow root instead of slippery Elm. And is that just,

Tina 16:57

do you think it's because slippery, Elm had some, um, sourcing issues where it was considered not endangered, certainly, but being over

Leah 17:05

harvested. I think so. I think that's where that comes

Tina 17:07

from. Yeah. I And marshmallow root is similar in its Musel AOUS nature, especially if it's soaked in cold water instead of hot water. So the way to, to get the mucilage out of marshmallow root is to soak it overnight and cold water ABOM works pretty well. And then you pour it off and that creates kinda the slippery substance. To your water. So those

Leah 17:30

are like the four basic Those are the four basic herbs used in these, these tea formulas. And

Watercress

Leah 17:37

then fluorescence also uses. Water crest, which is that also an alternative? I can't remember what the property of water CREs is when it's tasty. It's

Tina 17:47

delicious. Well, it's interesting cuz I think the sheep CRE also they make a lot of the chlorophyl substance of that. So I don't know if the water crest is just upping the anti on the chroy. At least in the Azac kind of handbooks that have been published and stuff on the formula. The sheep CRE has been touted as being, um, medicinal and anti-cancer due to its chroy content.

Leah 18:08

That's supposed to be good for your herd. It's a diuretic And then there's also blessed

Tina 18:12

thistle,

Blessed Thistle

Tina 18:13

blessed thistle, which is a lovely name. Don't you think it is really

Leah 18:17

nice. I don't know much about that one.

Tina 18:20

Well, it's a lot like it's cousin milk fi you know, it's not in the same. Um, yeah, it's

Leah 18:25

not the same family or whatever. It's a thistle.

Tina 18:29

Yeah. It's, it's similarly used, but I think of it as slightly gentler than milk thistle and milk thistle and, and blessed. This are both used for liver support.

Leah 18:39

So I'm, I'm looking up the, the blessed this old now, because it isn't something I'm familiar with. And it was once used to treat the bubonic plague. It also has been used to increase breast milk, production, So, yeah, it's interesting. The other ones that are added to fluorescence,

Red Clover

Leah 18:57

the third one that's added to fluorescence is red Clover. And that I am familiar with. That is one of those herbs that we've mentioned in the, I think it was one of the hot flash episodes that we typically recommend when a patient has an estrogen positive breast cancer.

Tina 19:13

Yes. The, uh, phytoestrogens in red Clover have some, we have some concern. Mixing those with anyone who has estrogen receptor, positive cancer, um, wherever that is. It's out of an abundance of caution, that we say that because red Clover's definitely estrogen in animals. Um, and we don't know it's effect on estrogen positive cancer cells. We don't know if it's promotive or not promotive, but it doesn't seem like a risk that's worth taking.

Leah 19:41

And it is something that is used in a lot of menopausal formulas. Like if you go to the, the health food store and you look at menopause formulas, it often has red Clover in it. Mm-hmm cause it, you know, Traditionally been used for things like hot flashes and whatnot.

Tina 19:56

So, yeah, and I think that red Clover has made its way into a lot of anti-cancer herbal formulas, whether it's fluorescence, Ojibwe tea or the Oxy formula out there that has it as its lead herb as well because of its blood thinning properties. I think it's its antiplatelet properties that may have some anti-cancer action. And that's why. Been added to all these formulas or was traditionally used in all of these native American formulas that we're talking about. That would make more sense to me. I don't think if, if it has any effect on cancer cells, it seems to me to make more sense that it is because of its effects on

Leah 20:35

platelets. So.

Honorable mentions... more plant medicines

Leah 20:37

Just kind of looking at this for these formulas, we didn't really go much into the additional ones that are in the Ojibwe tea, but those would be, um, licorice root, dandelion root bar root. So those are the ones that are different from the ones that we've named. I mean, these all are very sort of traditionally detoxifying herbs.

Tina 20:58

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, these are great alternative teas. Right? Great alternative formulas that Barberry root. Or Barberry root bark. However you wanna say it it's the burberine right. Barberry is, um, is high in burberine and burberine has some reasons to think we have some anti-cancer actions out of it. So it's interesting. The plants that were chosen for a lot of these do have some compounds that have some anti-cancer

Leah 21:23

effects. What I find, I don't wanna say suspect, but you know, it's not like these formula. Change, depending on what the cancer is. Mm-hmm so these three formulas all, oh, we forgot to mention kelp. Kelp is also in fluorescence. Um, kelp is high in iodine, right? I mean that that's its big, claim to fame, but these are the formulas that are supposed to treat all cancers as well as aids, you know, and HIV. And those are different, you know, they have different causes. Like it's just, you know, and it's supposed to help as like an anti-inflammatory. It helps with pain. It helps with immune stimulation. It's, you know, it's kind of like,

Leah speaks her truth

Leah 22:07

I just think of those like old school, ads, you see like the stuff that used to be in, um, you know, the, the guy comes along with a, with a wagon and he's selling some sort. Health tonic. That's going to cure all that ails you. Right. That's what I think of these. I mean, anytime someone says something like this is good for all cancers, all diseases, I get a little suspicious. Sure. And I wonder

Tina 22:30

if these were applied, if you let's go back to that medicine man, that Renee Casey talked to, I bet the medicine man had individual formulas for all people and gave her the basic four and then said, and then for this type. Disease or person I would add these herbs and for these symptoms, I would add these herbs. Cause that's how we practice medicine. Right. Herbal medicine especially is like, you don't have set formulas that all I don't for anything. I mean, even, even gastritis has different formulas depending on how it presents or heartburn or coughs. Right. I mean

Leah 22:58

like right. The cough

Tina 22:59

there's wet coughs there's dry coughs, there's persistent coughs, there's deep coughs. There's you know, how much flam do you hear rattling. And that will determine which herbs you put into that particular formula. And how much

Leah 23:08

of those herbs you put in. because one formula may have more of like a slippery Elm, which can help with cough. And then another one might have less, depending on the, on the properties of the

Tina 23:18

cough. Right? So I think that you are right in that you, there's no way that a single formula could be, you know, useful across the board for all the various cancers out there in all the various. Presentations causes types, subtypes. No way. It's not possible. What would be interesting though, is if the data was collected, if there are certain people that derive massive benefit, collecting that information and seeing what they have in common, is it their type of cancer? Is it their exposures in life? Is it, you know, I don't know, whatever they have in common. Is there something that we can say, oh, that particular person that presents this way with that type of cancer will benefit from. This particular herbal combination like that, I think that's more likely to happen and there's gonna be small segments that that's gonna apply to. Right. So you figure out who those segments are and apply the

Leah 24:08

right herbs. So let's take a break and then we'll come back and we can talk about, um, some studies that are out there. If you have any personal, experience with patients using these formulas. And then also we will talk about safety.

Tina 24:23

All right. See on this.

24:26

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Leah 24:44

Okay, so we're back. And I don't remember what we were supposed to talk about. So I think

Safety issues

Leah 24:48

part of it was safety issues, but there was something else. And I don't remember. So we'll just talk about safety issues.

24:53

All

Tina 24:53

right. So since these combinations generally, Are working on the liver as well as elimination pathways. We do have to be careful when people are taking drugs, especially oral drugs that are activated by the liver. Like in the case of Tamoxifen. Great example, someone swallows a Tamoxifen pill. Tamoxifen is not. The actual drug on the cells that has an effect. Tamoxifen is considered a pro drug that goes into your GI tract, goes to your liver and comes out it's metabolites of Tamoxifen that have the anti-cancer effect. So what we don't wanna do is mess around with the metabolism of drugs. Right outta the gates.

Leah 25:30

Right. And it affects through the, the sip four 50 pathway, which a lot of drugs go through.

Tina 25:37

Yes. The sip four 50, just for our listeners stands for cytochrome P four 50 enzymes in the liver specifically. And they're also in the, in the small intestine too, but we're talking about the ones in the liver.

Leah 25:48

Yeah. Oh, I remember what else we were gonna talk about. We're gonna talk about like any studies that we were able to find, looking at these formulas. So yeah, so. Going back to what you're saying. Patients often wanted detoxify during treatment. And

Detoxing... maybe not.

Leah 26:03

again, I'm using detoxifying in quotes. They may not be, but I don't want them to do anything. That's going to affect how their treatment is metabolized that could potentially interfere. And in my mind, that's what something that would be detoxifying would do. So avoiding these types of formulas, these herbs. Would definitely be important during treatment. Yeah. And I think

Tina 26:29

that's across the board, whether that's these herbs or any other product on the market that claims to be helping someone detox in any way, shape or form, because we're putting the emphasis on the liver, because we're talking about formulas with a lot of alternative or herbs in liver, supportive herbs, but this rings true. Any formula out there that increases our ability to clear chemicals from our body. Cuz some of those do work by helping cells pump the chemical out of the cell itself. We actually have these little pumps on the membrane of cells, right? they pump drugs out. So this is what we don't want to be supporting. If someone's getting a drug that's supposed to be killing that cell because if normal cell can do. Cancer cell is likely to be able to do it. And you don't want to get rid of the chemical compounds that are supposed to

Leah 27:15

kill the cell. The other thing you don't wanna do is through those same enzymes is you can also slow down how a cell eliminates something. And so you could be keeping a drug around longer, which in someone's mind might be like, oh cool, I'm getting more of an effect, but you may also get more of a side effect. So the way drugs are designed. Is very specific and you don't want anything altering, you know, whether it induces those enzymes or inhibits them.

Tina 27:47

Yeah. Yeah. Because no matter what, there is. It's called pharmacokinetics, but there's a lot of studies around these drugs. We're not sitting here pushing drugs, but it is well studied. And what you wanna do with these compounds is you wanna hit the therapeutic range without going above the therapeutic range or below the therapeutic range, because above it, you get too much toxicity and, and below it, you might not get a therapeutic effect at all, if you're not in the therapeutic range. And so those. Kinetics those pharmacokinetics, how much drug makes it into the system and where it goes in the body and how it's eliminated is well studied for each drug. And we don't wanna mess with that. We don't wanna mess with what is being predicted to have a beneficial effect and net benefit relative to the detriment

Leah 28:28

of it. And, you know, there was

Cell study of essiac tea

Leah 28:31

a study that was an in vitro study, looking at a 20 fold dilution of SCX specifically. And it was shown to inhibit some of those sip four 50 enzymes. So even a dilution of the formula still had an effect. And that probably is because of that huge amount of burdock, I would

Tina 28:53

think. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, that's how plants work is that, you know, they have net effects on cells and we just wanna make sure that we use that for good, right. Cause plants are powerful medicine. So even when we consider it a nourishing plant, we still probably should take a good look at it and make sure that we don't get in the way of any treatment. But yeah, I think burdock root probably is the one most likely affecting the liver of pathways.

Leah 29:16

Well, and especially because it, it was such a huge part of the formula, but so yeah, so even diluting it showed that it still had a pretty pronounced

Estrogenic?

Leah 29:23

effect. The phytoestrogen property also is a concern. I mean, again, there was an in vitro study that showed that breast cancer cells, human breast cancer cells, you know, in a lab, Were stimulated and grew under the influence of both SEIC and fluorescence. So we say it all the time. You know, what happens in a lab does not necessarily translate to what happens in a human, but again, we don't know what happens in a human. It's anecdotal. Mm-hmm, the information that we do have. And so, you know, that in itself is a concern mm-hmm

Tina 30:02

Yeah. And you know, we talk about alpha receptors and beta receptors when it comes to these estrogen receptors. Um, but there is something in cancer care that people should be aware of. And it's a concept called receptor promiscuity. meaning such a name. It's a. Name isn't it. Receptor promiscuity. Well, cuz you know

Leah 30:22

exactly what it's what's what, what, you know exactly what it means. That's right.

Tina 30:26

You, you didn't used to be that way, but now you're not faithful. You're not faithful. Not faithful to its original pathway. I'm going next

Leah 30:32

door. I'm gonna go talk to the receptor next door. They're more receptive to me.

Tina 30:37

That's right. Yep. So it happens with estrogen receptors and it also happens with androgen receptors and prostate cancer where we're blocking the testosterone.

Leah 30:46

And there was a study, I think, back in like 2004, where fluorescence was looked at, um, in a lab rat model and was shown to also promote, breast tumor development. So

Leah's Tale

Leah 31:00

again, it's, it's, Rodia that we're looking at. But

Tina 31:04

Rodden,

Leah 31:06

it's just not something that I would want a patient to have. And I do have a tale to tell about a

Tina 31:12

patient that was a good segue from Rodia to a tale to tell

Leah 31:16

from a rat to a tale. Yeah. Um, I did have a patient who had before I saw them. They had early stage breast cancer, and I believe that they had surgery. And then. Didn't want any other treatment, whatever was offered to them, possibly, you know, hormone therapy and they chose to do one of these, you know, one of. T formulas. I don't remember which one specifically, and I'm not sure the amount of time that passed, but the cancer did return, which it may have, regardless of what, if they did the T formula or not. Right. And it was growing through their skin and as it returned and coming through their skin, they resumed doing the T formula. and it was a very aggressive cancer. So I have no idea at, at all, if it's related, but in my mind, like I've kind of put those two things together. Mm-hmm so, um, you know, it's like, you don't know if someone turns to this alternative cure because the cancer is, you know, is coming back and appears to be very aggressive. And they're just trying to do something until they, they can get further treatment. But yeah, I just, I, it is not something I would recommend to. Really any of my cancer patients, um, or survivors, cuz I just don't, it's like, you're saying like if you're gonna prescribe an herbal formula to someone, it should be specific for that person and not something that is like lumps, everything together and it's, mm-hmm it's gonna fix everything. Yeah. Um, and so this is not something that I have good experience around, you know, just, and it's all anecdotal, you know, cuz there's not a ton of information out there, but yeah, I. It's not something I would recommend for my patients.

Tina 32:56

Yeah. I will say for a formula that's been around for a hundred years now, we have a dearth of information in humans and I do judge things by that. I mean, anecdotes are great in the beginning and then discovery phase of anything we have to, you know, use that information and say, oh, is there something here to this. Boy, it would be nice to see, you know, actual human information, human data, because maybe there is a subset of people that this, that any one of these formulas can help, but who are they and how do you, you know, target just them. I mean, it's awful to say, but if you're selling this as a product, That's not your ideal. You don't wanna lower your segment from everybody with cancer down to, you know, only people with this type of cancer who present in such and such way that got it from whatever source of, you know, supposed causation.

Leah 33:45

And the one study that, you know, I, I saw at least the abstract and I can't find the actual article, um, was a case of. Hormone refractory prostate cancer. So prostate cancer that doesn't respond to the hormone treatment anymore. Um, apparently it went into remission by somebody using an SEIC formula, but I couldn't find any information as to like what treatments the patient had had. So, you know, it's, I, I don't know how you could even do a study. Patients with active cancer. I mean, cuz you're gonna do this versus placebo or versus standard of care. And it just doesn't seem like a safe study in any

Tina 34:26

way. No, the only way you could do it is if someone was in active surveillance period, right? So they have a condition like let's take CLL chronic, uh, lymphocytic leukemia, and they're told, well, you're in a watchful waiting period. We're gonna watch your white blood cell count and you're not gonna get any treatment until we have to do treat. There's a few, you know, touch points in their lab work or in their being where you say, okay, we're gonna start treatment. So you could do in that, or in early prostate cancer where they have active surveillance. So those would be opportunities to do a study where you say, okay, these people take. One of these formulas and the other people take a placebo and you see, Hmm. I would think that's the only time you could do it the one thing we know for sure from studies is that when people put off standard of care is when they get themselves in trouble. And one study that, that the headline said alternative therapies, you know, had worse outcomes or whatever. However, they worded it to make it more scary than that even. Um, It wasn't about what people did it had to do with how long they put off standard of care. And that could

Leah 35:24

have very well have been with my, the patient that I saw when she had a recurrence. It may not have been the fact that she was doing this T formula. It could have very well been that she was trying to put off her standard of care, not wanting to do chemotherapy. So. Yeah,

Tina 35:41

for sure. So basically a delay of standard of care is not a good idea. So this is why you and I are such advocates for combining and integrating and using both at the same time. And when standard of care is over with then saying, okay, what can we do now? But not saying, oh, let's see if this alternative treatment works and we'll, you know, then three months, five months, six months later, as the cancer advances, now you go from one stage to the next stage, whatever that is, you know, stage one to two or two to three, then that's, that is not in anyone's interest. Then that is a very bad idea for nearly every single cancer out there. And

Leah 36:15

I, and like I said, I, I don't think this is a formula that I would use with the patient once they're done with treatment, or, I mean, it's just not something that. I think has enough evidence to, to, you know, to, to add to my, my toolbox.

Tina 36:31

Yeah. I'm, I'm pausing. I'm pausing cuz I'm thinking about it. Cause you're like, Hmm. Cause I'm thinking about it. I mean, in some cases where someone might, I might think that they need a strong alternative formula. Um, I wouldn't be opposed to fluorescence in particular. I mean, if I

Leah 36:46

wanted somebody to, to poop and they wanted to use herbs, I would do a completely different formula. Absolutely. Like, it's just, yeah, I just don't, I don't see anything. Um, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know, but no, it's, it's not my, it's not my remedy of choice and, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend it at all for somebody who, like you said, you know, wanted to like, well, well, let's try this for three months and see if this works and if not, then I'll do standard of care. Absolutely

Tina 37:14

not. No, that, that's the one thing that's been. Proven to be a bad idea. Um, it is interesting. I wanna point something out there of the three formulas we went over today. Only AAC has no red Clover and AAC is the formula that was used on that breast cancer patient that supposedly had regression. So my point is red Clover wasn't in her formula. If that. Anecdotal story is true, then it was just the four plants

Leah 37:39

and rhubarb does have phytoestrogen properties. But according to the formula that you read, it's very low

Tina 37:45

amount. Yes. Yeah. It's nearly all burdock root. Yeah. So, but still in any case, I don't, I don't have anything inherently against the plants themselves. These plants are fine dandy in the right, at the right time, in the right place, in the right amount for the right person. an Azac of the three is the least likely to

Leah 38:04

cause problems in terms of breast cancer, but not in terms of interactions with medications cuz burdock root, you don't think burdock root would interact with. I think burdock root has

Tina 38:15

less likelihood to interact than blessed a, this, I think blessed a, this I would be more concerned about and we don't know about sheeps or. No, that's the one I know the least about, of any plant we've talked about

Leah 38:25

is this is, is this our episode? Have we have we come to a conclusion?

Tina 38:30

Yeah, well, that's what I was trying to conclude. you were trying to conclude with, with AAC being the least, least, um, risky of the bunch. If one is going to do an alternative T that supports detoxification and elimination pathways, AAC, in my opinion, has the least likelihood of having UNW effects in someone. Yeah. And I'm

Leah 38:50

still. Oh, interesting sheep CIRE has a large amount of vitamin C that helps the body against scurvy check it. Yeah, I'm still a no, still a no on this. I have to say that is the one thing, anything that claims to cure every single thing that's out there. Red flag.

The unofficial theme song

Leah 39:12

Um, so we do have a song. We do, we have a song for this one, um, because these are the cure, all remedies and the song is remedy by the black crows.

Tina 39:27

Do I know it. I don't know.

Leah 39:29

I need a remedy for what is ailing me. You see, it's a good song. Okay. It's a really good song. It's awesome. Video. It's a great song. And that's just what I kept thinking. Every time I was like looking up all the studies is that this is like your, your kind of cure. All remedy right. Helps with inflammation, helps with pain, helps with cancer, helps with aids, detoxification it cures. What ails you. It's a remedy. And so that's our song.

Tina 39:54

All right. I like. I don't know it, but I like

Leah 39:57

it. All right. You know, it, you, I will play it for you. I will send it to you. You, you will know. I like, assuming you'll know it you'll totally know it. It's an awesome song by an awesome band. I love

Tina 40:07

how much credit you give me for things that aren't even true, but I appreciate it. Yeah. But Jen,

Leah 40:11

you're gonna listen to it and be like, oh, I know that song. All right. So thanks for listening rate and review. Tell us what you think. Tell us your anecdotes about using cures. Follow us on the follow us on the social media. Buy us a coffee, buy Tina two coffees, cuz she really

Tina 40:31

likes coffee. True that on that note,

Leah 40:35

I'm Dr. Leia

Tina 40:36

Sherman and I'm Dr. Tina Kaser and this is the cancer pod until next time