June 8, 2022

The Truth About... That Low Carb Diet. Is Keto Really the Cure?

The Truth About... That Low Carb Diet. Is Keto Really the Cure?
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Season 1 The Truth About...

Ketogenic diets are all the rage these days, but what is ketosis?  Should you try to achieve it? If so, how? Tina & Leah talk facts about the ketogenic diet, what it is and what it isn’t. 

What does it mean to be in a state of ketosis? And, most importantly, does the ketogenic diet have anti-cancer effects? 

There are studies out there on the ketogenic diet in people with cancer, and we stick close to the data in these studies. There is plenty of theory around why a ketogenic diet should be useful (and we love a good hypothetical), but the ketogenic diet is not to be taken lightly. There are even some cancers where it should be avoided completely.

Join Tina & Leah as they discuss the details of the ketogenic diet for cancer.

Tell us your thoughts on this episode!

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01:02 - Introduction

03:19 - Origin of the ketogenic diet

05:34 - What is ketosis?

07:02 - Feast and Famine

08:10 - Carb limit for keto

09:39 - What are ketones?

10:25 - Keto breath

11:10 - Other conditions that may benefit

12:03 - Metabolic targeting of cancer

13:23 - Primary brain tumor (Glioblastoma)

16:35 - Pancreatic cancer

19:11 - Colon cancer

20:52 - 17 patients with metastatic cancers

22:28 - Keto and radiation treatment

24:33 - Acute side effects

25:16 - Tangent- Tina's confession

26:50 - Back to side effects

29:37 - Cautions

30:04 - Coconut (MCT) Oil

31:11 - Long term side effects

31:30 - Keto rash

31:54 - Existing conditions that warrant caution

34:06 - Ketone supplements?

36:45 - Last bits of advice

37:33 - Triple-negative breast cancer

39:48 - The unofficial theme song

42:03 - Shoutouts to our supporters!

WEBVTT

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Welcome to episode 32 of the cancer pod.

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In this episode, we talk about that low carb diet, you know, the one everybody's talking.

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Where did it come from?

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What is it good for?

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Can it help cancer patients stick around to find out these answers

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in more, um, Dr.

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Tina Kaeser and his lay likes to say, I'm the science one.

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I'm Dr.

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Lee Sherman and I'm

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the cancer insider, and we're to naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care, but we're not your doctors.

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This is for education, entertainment, and informational purposes only do not

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apply any of this information.

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Without first speaking to you.

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The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own.

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Welcome to the counselor pod.

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Hey Tina.

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Hey Leah.

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So we've got a new series

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pod series.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Kind of straighten things out a little.

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Maybe talk about some, not so convenient truths out there.

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Yeah.

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So there are things that patients, you know, they hear from other people you've got to take this, you've got to do this.

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You've got to not eat this because it's good for cancer cancer in general.

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And so we're going to take a look at whether it's a, a supplement or a diet or just some sort of recommendation.

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And we're going to kind of break it down and see, is this the cancer cure hall, right.

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That

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it's claimed.

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Exactly.

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And we're gonna start today with the ketogenic diet, which I think a lot of people get recommended to them by well-meaning loved ones, ketosis,

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ketosis.

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That's what we're talking about

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today, where the question is is, is ketosis.

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Truth about ketosis, actually the

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truth about the ketogenic diet.

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It's confusing because there's so many sources.

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So even if you're just sticking to the medical literature, it can be confusing.

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So yeah.

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Add some, uh, Dr.

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Google in there.

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Whatever your search engine is, and it gets confusing quickly.

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Yeah.

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I

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had to do a lot of research for this, cause I don't really talk diet with my patients because we have dieticians.

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So I was just kind of looking to see if there was anything new.

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And I noticed I did a search in my.

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Inbox on Quito.

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And it seems to be like, kind of a, like, even a bigger thing in the medical newsletter world.

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Like there's a lot of information that is out there now.

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So I think it's even becoming more

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confusing.

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Yes.

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And you know what?

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I'll admit to something.

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I do not read anything, but the medical literature on ketogenic diet.

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'cause, I don't want to confuse myself.

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I don't want the onslaught of, you know, public facing health information because a lot of that is put out by industry or by interested supplement companies that might skew the information.

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And so I stick to ketogenic diet in the realm of cancer care specifically.

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So I just stick to the reliable stuff, knowing that if I read it, then I read it from a reliable source that way.

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And the

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cancer part of it is, I mean, relatively new because.

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Initially, it was used as a treatment in the early 1920s for epilepsy.

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And they used it before the drugs ever were invented.

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I mean, they didn't know the drugs were going to be invented, but this was the, this was the standard treatment until anti-epileptic drugs were created.

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And then it kind of fell out with popularity until.

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Yeah, it fell out of favor because phenobarbital, I think was the first or something of the sort was one of the first anti-seizure medications.

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And then there were some children, especially with epilepsy.

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Didn't have controlled seizures with the drugs and my recollection, although I don't know if I can find this again, 20 years ago.

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I remember reading and I think it was through the Charlie foundation, which is a foundation that was founded on promoting the ketogenic diet for epilepsy specifically.

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I remember in their materials a long time ago during my residency, when I was reading it, that there was a nurse.

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Johns Hopkins that remembered the old ketogenic diet protocol.

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And she kind of was the, the one practitioner keeping it alive.

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And the whole

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Charlie foundation there's in there a movie based on that story too.

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Okay.

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For anyone who's interested, but yeah, there there's a movie based on the story of.

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The little

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boy.

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Yeah.

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Whose name was Charlie?

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And he had seizures that couldn't be controlled with medications and had seizure control with a ketogenic diet.

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And then the foundation was founded with the mission of bringing that to children, with epilepsy who needed to have seizure control.

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So through that we know a lot about the ketogenic diet.

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So one it's been used for a very long time.

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So we have lots of information on it.

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It is used safely and can be used safely with guidance, professional guidance.

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So that that's a lot of evidence just right there to say, okay, this is not just fly by night.

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We didn't just make it up.

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You know, in the last 20 years,

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even though it is popular, like you go to the grocery store and you see things like keto donuts and keto bread, like all of that kind of stuff.

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Like it's kind of, I don't want to say jump the shark, but it's kind of jumped the shark.

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Yeah.

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We need our own term and natural medicine for when things do that.

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As jumping the sharks based on that happy days episode where Fonzie goes over to the sharks.

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Yeah.

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He literally

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jumps the shark.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But that's kind of, yeah, that's kind of what happened with the keto diet.

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So maybe Tina, you want to explain what ketosis is, which is the foundation.

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Like that's the whole thing.

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That's the whole point of the ketogenic diet is to put the human body into ketosis.

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What the heck is ketosis

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by definition, the ketogenic diet is a high fat.

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Low carbohydrate low.

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Protein diet that I should say adequate protein, you know, not low as in deprivation, adequate, but low protein intake that puts the body into a state of metabolism that uses ketones instead of glucose as its major energy source.

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So

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our bodies use glucose normally for energy.

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Our brains use a lot of

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glucose.

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Yeah.

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So if you look at a cell, glucose goes into the cell.

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And that glucose basically gets modified.

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We'll just leave it at that.

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And we get.

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So instead of glucose going into the cell and making energy with ketosis, you have ketones going into the cell and entering a cycle that can then make energy within the cell.

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So you can run on ketones rather than on glucose.

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Your cells can,

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but it's getting it from fat.

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Yes.

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Right?

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So that's, that's the whole point of why it's like this high fat diet is because your body will convert and start to use fat for fuel instead of.

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Glucose.

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Right.

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Right.

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It's a little bit more intricate than glucose from carbohydrate, which is very simple.

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We can get, we all know that blood glucose comes from carbohydrates in our diets.

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Some blood glucose can come from proteins in the diet.

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It is possible to convert some amino acids.

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Over into glucose, but we cannot make glucose from fats.

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So when you put fats in your mouth, you're going to make ketones from them, but only when there's a metabolic necessity to do so.

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And that metabolic necessity is starvation.

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Right.

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So if there's no, the feast and famine idea is what we're built on.

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Our physiology is founded on the whole idea that sometimes of the year we are feasting and other times we have famine and that has to do with seasons and cycles and geography.

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Um, it's kind of amazing when you think about what a fast is, the body can run on very low.

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And when we don't have food going in, when we're truly fasting, ketosis is a survival mechanism.

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We go into ketosis to make sure that our heart and our brain and our liver and Al of our internal organs can function.

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So.

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When you think about it, it's a natural state of being, and I'm sure it does some physiological good to be, to be fasting because our bodies were made for that.

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Okay.

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So a ketogenic diet is low carb, but it's not no carb, but it may as well be no carb because if normally you eat between 200 to 300 grams of carbs, A day, the ketogenic diet limits at between 40 and 50 grams.

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So it's only five to 10% of your calories carbohydrates.

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And from what I was looking up, cause I have to look all this up because it's not something I recommend.

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Um, for women, they need to go more towards the 40 than the

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50.

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Yeah.

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And what I have seen in patients is it seems to be highly variable.

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I think it has a lot to do with how a person's physiology handles carbohydrates and how well they regulate it.

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So someone with trouble, you know, someone who's pre-diabetic, for example, might have to restrict it down to that 40.

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So in my experience, if there's some variability between people, but 40 to 50 is, is a good range, I think, to hit when you want to be ketogenic, it's very low it's.

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You know, it's not a convenient diet.

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I mean, online, you'll see a lot of variations, but what we're talking about is the medically therapeutic ketogenic diet, not

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the fad, not the fad.

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And you know, I guess, okay.

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Let's take a quick break.

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And then when we come back, we can talk about why people do the ketogenic diet.

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Beyond the fad beyond the Instagram posts

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and all of that.

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Yeah.

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All right, let's do that.

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So, Tina, what the heck are ketones here?

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Okay, so, oh, ketones, as in you take the fat in the fat goes to your liver and your liver kicks out these ketones as needed again, when it sees the necessity for this, right?

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When you don't have enough glucose, your liver will turn out the ketone bodies and there's only three beta hydroxy.

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Butyrate is the one that we talk about the most beta hydroxy butyrate.

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Measured in the bloodstream, then there's acetone.

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We all know acetone.

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Yes.

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It's similar to nail Polish remover.

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Yeah.

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And stuff.

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And acetoacetate is the last one, a CDOT acetate and beta hydroxy.

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Butyrate are the two that are used for fuel.

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Just an aside, they have that kind of sweet smell to them.

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So sometimes you can, you can smell this on someone's breath a little bit.

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You can smell.

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Do you remember juicy fruit gum?

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Good.

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Yeah.

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I love that.

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Yeah, it was delicious.

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Oh, it smells a little bit like that.

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Interesting.

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Yeah.

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I remember hearing about certain actresses on a very popular series in the nineties.

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They were all like, kind of doing a, an Atkins type, which.

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Can be ketogenic in some ways.

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And yeah, they all apparently had really bad breath.

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It was like a gossip column was talking about how they all had really bad breath.

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Cause they were just all, um, yeah.

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Starving themselves and work well for today's world where people don't actually see each other in person.

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They just take pictures.

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Right.

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So you can have bad breath, but look great.

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Or you're wearing

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a mask and it doesn't match.

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Well, you got to live with your own breath then that's true.

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Okay.

00:11:10.865 --> 00:11:14.375
So what besides epilepsy?

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Is Quito used with and weight loss was a really, that's a really big popular one.

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I think that's what you see when you see people who are advertising, like all of these, like, I don't know why I'm obsessed with keto donuts and keto bread.

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That's keto, ice cream, all of that stuff.

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I think.

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For people who don't want to deprive themselves while they're trying to lose weight, um, diabetes, it's been looked at metabolic syndrome, which is that sort of conglomerate of high blood sugars, high blood pressure and high cost.

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Um, different neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, I think also it's being looked at, and then the reason why we're here, cause we're the cancer pod is it's also being studied with various

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cancers.

00:12:03.169 --> 00:12:03.529
Yeah.

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There's a few reasons it's become popular and the whole idea of the metabolic.

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In flexibility of the cancers, uh, various cancers has become popular.

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So meaning the metabolism of the cancer cells is different than the metabolism of normal cells that we've known this for a very long time, right?

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That the metabolism within cancer cells is different than normal cells.

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The problem with this whole thing is, and I want to just put this out front is there is no cancer material.

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As a whole, it's not like one thing.

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It depends on the type of cancer.

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And then even within the type of cancer, which subtype of cancer.

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So breast cancer, for example, has a different metabolic picture for each different type of breast cancer.

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So if it's estrogen receptor positive versus negative, if it's her two positive versus negative, the type or subtype of breast cancer will change, it's likely metabolism.

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So meaning when.

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Remember metabolism of every cell in the body is based on using either fat, amino acids or glucose as fuel.

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That's it, you've got three things that can be used as fuel within a cell and normal cells can be very flexible between using, for example, glucose when it's available and ketones, when there's no glucose available.

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The only exception to that by the way, is the liver.

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The liver cannot use ketones for energy.

00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:22.590
But otherwise all cells in the body can generally do that.

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And in some cancers like glioblastoma primary brain tumor, aggressive brain tumor, it happens to most often have a metabolic inflexibility.

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So it can't use those ketones.

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So when glucose is not around glioblastoma cells have a hard time using ketones for.

00:13:40.735 --> 00:13:51.294
So it's, it's one of those that's been well-studied and well-proven, and I think of all the cancer is glioblastoma has the most research of any cancer and probably the best hypothesis for its use to.

00:13:51.625 --> 00:13:58.705
And so when somebody would start a ketogenic diet, if they had glioblastoma, this is something they have to be on for.

00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:05.240
That's what's also being looked at is the data that we do have implies that that is true.

00:14:05.659 --> 00:14:11.029
In the case of glioblastoma, we had some early anecdotal cases that were written up.

00:14:11.419 --> 00:14:13.460
I can think of one paper in particular.

00:14:14.865 --> 00:14:24.945
The patient had glioblastoma went on a ketogenic diet, had control of the disease long story short until they couldn't do this ketogenic diet anymore because it was so restrictive and they stopped doing it.

00:14:24.945 --> 00:14:29.475
They had progression of disease and there was an assumption that, you know, this must have something to do, right.

00:14:29.475 --> 00:14:31.725
There's correlation here, but that was a case study.

00:14:31.725 --> 00:14:37.965
And there have been several trials of patients with glioblastoma who have tried ketogenic diets.

00:14:37.965 --> 00:14:43.965
And I want to say right now, the number of publications, either either nine or 10 out there, almost all of them are small.

00:14:44.544 --> 00:14:59.754
Um, they're not large enough to make a lot of conclusions, but I'll tell you just cutting to the chase, having gone through all of them, my opinion is this, the ketones are supposed to have an anti-cancer fact by way of not being used by the glio lest Alma cells or glioma cells.

00:14:59.754 --> 00:15:00.625
It's just called glioma.

00:15:01.105 --> 00:15:02.184
Glioblastoma just happens to be.

00:15:02.899 --> 00:15:04.279
Most aggressive type of glioma.

00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.159
So the glioma cells cannot use the ketones.

00:15:07.250 --> 00:15:09.019
So we think, well, we'll starve them, right?

00:15:09.049 --> 00:15:11.629
We'll just put someone on a ketogenic diet and that should work.

00:15:11.870 --> 00:15:13.759
Well, it doesn't seem to work all the time.

00:15:14.029 --> 00:15:18.019
My guess is that some gliomas can use other things, maybe amino acids.

00:15:18.899 --> 00:15:19.200
Right.

00:15:19.230 --> 00:15:21.539
So maybe the protein has to be restricted as well.

00:15:21.539 --> 00:15:24.179
And it's already a pretty highly deprived diet.

00:15:24.179 --> 00:15:33.509
So that'll be hard in any case, it looks like when you parse out the data and this just came out earlier, this year was one study that said, look, ketogenic didn't have any different outcomes.

00:15:33.539 --> 00:15:34.649
They did a short.

00:15:35.970 --> 00:15:47.309
Diet with a small, fast, and then ketogenic diet again in glioma patients who were getting radiation and they didn't see any difference between the ketogenic diet group and the standard group in the first publication.

00:15:47.309 --> 00:15:54.450
But then they went back and they parse the data and they said, oh, people who had their blood glucose below 83 had better outcomes.

00:15:54.629 --> 00:15:57.840
So it wasn't the ketogenic diet itself.

00:15:58.735 --> 00:16:02.815
Keeping her glucose low associated with much, much better outcomes.

00:16:03.164 --> 00:16:08.095
Like those people live twice, as long as those who didn't keep their glucose below 83.

00:16:08.394 --> 00:16:13.524
So is it ketones from fats or is it the lack of glucose and amino acids?

00:16:13.554 --> 00:16:14.424
That's therapeutic.

00:16:14.845 --> 00:16:18.475
And I think we're just getting to the point of realizing that it's the latter.

00:16:18.774 --> 00:16:22.644
I think we're going to have more and more information that coming out that says, if you can keep that glucose.

00:16:23.475 --> 00:16:27.195
Really suppressed, then you're going to have better outcomes in the case of glioma.

00:16:27.195 --> 00:16:35.325
Anyway, and I only say this because my own experience, it looks like that to my patients who have done best with gliomas have had ultra low glucose levels.

00:16:35.475 --> 00:16:35.654
So

00:16:35.654 --> 00:16:35.804
that

00:16:35.804 --> 00:16:38.504
kind of also goes to there's that recent.

00:16:39.014 --> 00:16:42.945
Study that looked at patients who are undergoing treatment for pancreatic cancer.

00:16:42.945 --> 00:16:46.934
They're receiving, I don't remember what they were getting gem Abraxane and something else.

00:16:46.995 --> 00:16:49.394
And they also were put on a ketogenic diet.

00:16:49.725 --> 00:16:59.205
Um, and it was, it was, it's been in the news where, you know, it had good outcomes and we talked about that and it's like, well, is it the blood sugar control?

00:16:59.205 --> 00:17:01.215
Like what, what actually is going on there?

00:17:01.274 --> 00:17:01.485
Yeah.

00:17:02.254 --> 00:17:02.615
Yeah.

00:17:02.625 --> 00:17:06.134
And there's other things that are going on when someone's on a ketogenic diet and some of it has to do with.

00:17:06.875 --> 00:17:12.694
Acidity like acidosis, a lot of uric acid gets produced in some people we have to be careful of that.

00:17:12.694 --> 00:17:16.865
So is the pH of their body changed by this therapeutic diet as well.

00:17:16.865 --> 00:17:21.964
So there's other things going on besides ketone manufacturing and low glucose.

00:17:21.964 --> 00:17:26.525
So I think if we watch the data, we'll see, we'll see more and more what's happening.

00:17:26.525 --> 00:17:26.795
But.

00:17:28.365 --> 00:17:38.595
Should have some anti-cancer effect, but I will say so far, it's not a standalone so much as it is complimentary to whether it's radiation or chemotherapy.

00:17:38.954 --> 00:17:43.394
It does not stand alone as its own therapeutic anti-cancer methodology.

00:17:43.394 --> 00:17:43.875
It's not.

00:17:44.970 --> 00:17:47.519
I would never say to someone, oh, just go ketogenic.

00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:48.599
That should control your cancer.

00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.210
I think that's a kind of at this point, a ludicrous idea.

00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:52.049
It's not going to happen.

00:17:52.049 --> 00:17:53.309
It may slow something down.

00:17:53.309 --> 00:17:59.339
It might have some beneficial effects, but I don't think that it can be called therapeutic as a standalone monotherapy.

00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:05.849
Well, one of the results of people who do go on a ketogenic diet is weight loss.

00:18:05.849 --> 00:18:10.500
And so like with endometrial and breast cancer, it's being looked at as well.

00:18:11.434 --> 00:18:13.565
You know, is it the, is it the weight loss?

00:18:13.565 --> 00:18:15.214
Is it that blood sugar control?

00:18:15.214 --> 00:18:20.015
Like what exactly is driving the benefit in these very, very small trials?

00:18:20.015 --> 00:18:34.384
Like, I mean, I don't encourage patients to start a ketogenic diet if they come to me with questions, that's when I refer them to, to the dietician, because I like to think the dieticians are more on top of like the latest.

00:18:35.115 --> 00:18:36.494
Information that's out there.

00:18:36.974 --> 00:18:43.845
If somebody is at risk of losing weight, it's not something that I want patients to try.

00:18:44.355 --> 00:18:51.674
So, you know, there was something that I saw on a, like a phase, one trial with head and neck cancer patients who are undergoing treatment.

00:18:52.255 --> 00:19:01.615
Had some sort of favorable outcomes, but like, to me, that would be really concerning because of the extreme weight loss that can happen with patients undergoing treatment for head and neck cancer.

00:19:02.154 --> 00:19:06.384
So, yeah, and again, like most of these studies, they like the lung cancer.

00:19:06.384 --> 00:19:08.125
One that also recently came out there.

00:19:08.125 --> 00:19:09.174
These are phase one trials.

00:19:09.750 --> 00:19:12.809
These are very, very small, um, colon cancer.

00:19:12.809 --> 00:19:27.720
That was the other one because I told you, like, when I was trying to find more information, I just did a search in my, in my newsletters for Quito and all these studies came up and one of them was just a few days old about, um, looking at the ketogenic diet.

00:19:27.809 --> 00:19:28.980
It was actually the, what is it?

00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:33.599
Beta hydroxy, butyrate that was shown to be beneficial in mice.

00:19:34.335 --> 00:19:35.505
Colon tumors.

00:19:35.565 --> 00:19:44.835
Um, yeah, I want to be, I always keep reiterating this, but prevention of cancer and what one does once cancer cancers present are two completely different things.

00:19:44.835 --> 00:19:54.045
When it comes to diet in my mind, like there's a hard stop, you know, prevention of cancer means trying to prevent carcinogenesis, trying to prevent the normal.

00:19:54.869 --> 00:19:56.039
Becoming cancerous.

00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:07.200
That's very different than once cancer is present, whether we're talking colon or breast or whatever prevention of recurrence, where we're kind of making an assumption that maybe there's some old Colt cells, little tiny cells that we don't know about.

00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.140
We make an assumption that there could be cancer already present in the body.

00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:16.980
And if someone's doing a therapeutic diet, that is more along the lines of when we think cancers present rather than prevention of cancer.

00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:22.589
So I just want to say that because when you mentioned colon cancer, I think of ketogenic diets as often not having enough in the way of.

00:20:23.595 --> 00:20:26.654
Just because of, you know, what they're made of generally.

00:20:26.954 --> 00:20:32.775
I mean, it can be gotten, you can have a high nutrient dense ketogenic diet, but I will say a lot of people don't do that.

00:20:33.315 --> 00:20:34.964
So just a cautionary.

00:20:34.964 --> 00:20:38.444
If someone's preventing colorectal cancer, it's very different than preventing recurrence.

00:20:39.115 --> 00:20:42.025
Living with metastatic colorectal cancer and

00:20:42.295 --> 00:20:44.005
these studies were not done in humans.

00:20:44.005 --> 00:20:50.065
And so if you're trying to prevent colon tumors in your pet mouse, it might be something that you can investigate.

00:20:50.065 --> 00:20:52.164
But yeah, these aren't weren't human trials.

00:20:52.644 --> 00:20:52.855
Yeah.

00:20:52.884 --> 00:20:53.305
Um,

00:20:53.394 --> 00:20:55.434
I want to say one more, one more little trial that happened.

00:20:55.434 --> 00:20:56.275
This was quite a few years ago.

00:20:56.984 --> 00:20:58.575
But it made an impression on me.

00:20:58.575 --> 00:21:07.275
It was 17 people with various heavily pretreated metastatic cancers, and they did ketogenic diet for all of them.

00:21:07.365 --> 00:21:13.724
And they tracked whether people actually entered ketosis or not with the dietary restrictions and some did and some didn't.

00:21:14.295 --> 00:21:21.045
Um, and they did have a few people, I can't remember it's two or three had stable disease or, or some partial response to this.

00:21:21.045 --> 00:21:25.065
And it was the, it was the only treatment used, but what was most fascinating from the study was.

00:21:25.714 --> 00:21:29.615
The few people who had some stability of disease from the diet.

00:21:29.674 --> 00:21:32.704
We're not necessarily the people who went into ketosis, so they didn't match.

00:21:32.765 --> 00:21:33.815
And I always thought about that.

00:21:33.815 --> 00:21:35.194
Like, well, that's interesting.

00:21:35.224 --> 00:21:40.924
What, so what we're seeing in the outcomes there, if we didn't look at ketones would have been like, well, those were probably the people who went into ketosis the best, right?

00:21:40.924 --> 00:21:43.085
Like we didn't test it, but they tested it.

00:21:43.085 --> 00:21:49.115
So you can say, well, that doesn't make a hundred percent sense, but it goes back to the deprivation of the other macronutrients.

00:21:49.690 --> 00:21:59.140
Did these people happen to have cancers that we're capable of using glucose and amino acids and that the deprivation of the, those two had something to do with their outcome?

00:21:59.140 --> 00:21:59.529
I don't know.

00:21:59.859 --> 00:22:08.619
So I'm just saying that because there's little things in the data that kind of keep informing me to say, oh, whether it's the ketones or the lack of the others is debatable.

00:22:08.740 --> 00:22:12.519
So what we'll do is we'll put links to these studies that we're talking about.

00:22:13.454 --> 00:22:16.515
It's interesting just to kind of see where the research is going.

00:22:16.785 --> 00:22:17.115
Yeah.

00:22:17.115 --> 00:22:28.424
And you know, I, sometimes when I'm looking at natural therapies that are otherwise safe, you know, especially if I can make sure that it's safer person, you know, they don't, they're not at risk of severe weight loss of any kind or something like that.

00:22:29.190 --> 00:22:31.829
I kind of think is a reason not to do it.

00:22:31.829 --> 00:22:40.440
So I would say when people are going through radiation is one time that I lean towards ketogenic diets because there seems to be really good theoretical reasons to do it.

00:22:40.470 --> 00:22:43.829
And radiation is a limited time course for most people.

00:22:43.829 --> 00:22:44.130
Right?

00:22:44.130 --> 00:22:54.720
So you can do it for a short stint, whether that's five days or five weeks, um, depends on your radiation course, but radiation seems to be a place where it's worth doing.

00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:58.259
And it's kind of like, it's not a lifestyle, it's a therapeutic diet that you're doing strictly.

00:22:58.805 --> 00:23:00.154
A finite amount of time.

00:23:00.154 --> 00:23:01.025
So that makes more sense to

00:23:01.025 --> 00:23:01.234
me.

00:23:01.414 --> 00:23:09.035
And it's probably more doable because I mean, that is one of the biggest things is compliance with, with staying on this diet.

00:23:09.035 --> 00:23:17.615
It's, it's such a deprivation, um, for patients, which is why it's concerning for, you know, for certain patients who are going through treatment for cancer.

00:23:17.914 --> 00:23:25.505
And then I would think that there would be caution, I guess we're going to talk about our cautions next, but I'm just, you know, there are some cancers where.

00:23:26.025 --> 00:23:27.434
Just high-fat in general.

00:23:27.494 --> 00:23:35.085
I mean, it seems a little sketch, so it's, it's, it's not one of these things, you know, I think that's what this whole, like the truth about that we're doing.

00:23:35.085 --> 00:23:45.375
It's like one of these things where patients come to us and they're like, I heard the ketogenic diet is good for cancer patients and it's, it's not the same cancer is not the same.

00:23:45.375 --> 00:23:48.494
So one thing is not good for all.

00:23:49.275 --> 00:23:50.654
Patients except exercise.

00:23:50.714 --> 00:23:57.634
I will say exercise is good for everybody, but other than that, and maybe some hydration, hydration might be good for everybody and maybe

00:23:57.644 --> 00:23:58.545
proper sleep and

00:23:58.545 --> 00:23:59.265
sleep sleep.

00:23:59.295 --> 00:23:59.565
Yeah.

00:23:59.595 --> 00:23:59.865
Okay.

00:23:59.865 --> 00:24:03.015
But other than those things and proper nutrition,

00:24:03.045 --> 00:24:05.625
but yeah, after laughter's good.

00:24:05.714 --> 00:24:06.075
Yes.

00:24:06.315 --> 00:24:08.144
In forest bathing, forest bathing.

00:24:08.894 --> 00:24:12.404
Wait, how long has her list, but wait a minute.

00:24:13.755 --> 00:24:16.815
50 grams of carbohydrate per day is an ultra Loma.

00:24:17.085 --> 00:24:26.355
You can find 50 grams and just two medium apples or two medium bananas or one medium order of French fries or about 22 gummy bears.

00:24:30.914 --> 00:24:31.394
Okay.

00:24:31.545 --> 00:24:35.295
So side effects of the ketogenic diet.

00:24:35.444 --> 00:24:36.974
I think the biggest one.

00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:40.440
That people talk about is that sort of keto

00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:41.670
flu symptom.

00:24:42.329 --> 00:24:42.960
Oh yeah.

00:24:45.150 --> 00:24:46.140
Just getting through that.

00:24:46.410 --> 00:24:49.200
The keto flu, the keto flu.

00:24:49.619 --> 00:24:50.730
Have you ever experienced it?

00:24:51.029 --> 00:24:51.809
The keto flu?

00:24:51.809 --> 00:24:51.930
I

00:24:51.930 --> 00:24:52.990
don't know.

00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:57.420
Like, because from like doing intermittent fasting, I don't know.

00:24:57.509 --> 00:25:00.779
I don't know because I only felt really crappy the first time I did.

00:25:01.484 --> 00:25:08.474
My, um, my ProLon dare I say it the first time I did ProLon I felt crappy, but I thought it was cause I wasn't having caffeine.

00:25:08.684 --> 00:25:10.184
Oh yeah.

00:25:10.214 --> 00:25:12.974
Kind of hard to tell that it's hard to tell when you're like told if

00:25:12.974 --> 00:25:15.765
you could only have one cup of coffee a day and I was drinking caffeine back then.

00:25:16.095 --> 00:25:16.335
So.

00:25:17.144 --> 00:25:17.244
Yeah,

00:25:17.244 --> 00:25:20.085
I got to give you a, I gotta give you a true story, right?

00:25:20.384 --> 00:25:23.085
Speaking of not, not wanting to deprive yourself of caffeine.

00:25:23.115 --> 00:25:23.984
I went to some extremes.

00:25:24.434 --> 00:25:28.035
So I go to this place in Mexico that does his fasting detoxification.

00:25:28.035 --> 00:25:31.595
I went with a patient and one of the things we're supposed to do is not have.

00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:48.180
So they got all this stuff, you know, they got yoga and exercise and warm baths and all sorts of energy medicine and hyperbarics, and they got all this stuff and they've got great food, always organic, put it out, juicing, all sorts of stuff, but they said no caffeine.

00:25:48.509 --> 00:25:52.819
So, oh, there I'll do a lot of things, but I'm not giving up the caffeine.

00:25:52.829 --> 00:25:54.029
I'm not giving my coffee.

00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:54.869
I won't do it.

00:25:55.589 --> 00:25:58.019
I'm so stubborn about this.

00:25:59.115 --> 00:26:01.785
Went out and got an arrow oppress and brought my own coffee.

00:26:02.505 --> 00:26:04.934
You know, an air press that you can just like, press down the coffee.

00:26:05.325 --> 00:26:05.414
We're

00:26:05.414 --> 00:26:06.734
like doing this in your room.

00:26:06.795 --> 00:26:07.244
Oh yeah.

00:26:07.515 --> 00:26:15.644
Like on the low down it felt a little sheepish about putting it in the garbage cause I felt like, oh, this is the giveaway because I wasn't going to like haul it back to them, you know, to the states with me.

00:26:16.125 --> 00:26:16.275
But.

00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:20.940
Yeah, I did it anyways, because there was no way in hell five days.

00:26:21.150 --> 00:26:22.019
What's no way.

00:26:25.710 --> 00:26:31.259
And that is how dedicated I am to the cause of coffee in my day to day.

00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:32.009
Is that wrong?

00:26:32.150 --> 00:26:33.450
I don't, I don't know.

00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:35.789
Cause I don't drink caffeine anymore, so,

00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:39.480
oh, Lottie di cause I'm

00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:41.430
cause I'm frailty.

00:26:41.970 --> 00:26:44.700
I like my daycare because I'm old.

00:26:47.055 --> 00:26:48.075
That was a confession of sorts.

00:26:48.375 --> 00:26:48.765
Yeah.

00:26:48.765 --> 00:26:50.565
So, so it's, it's confounding.

00:26:50.565 --> 00:26:53.025
I don't know if I've ever had the keto flu.

00:26:53.384 --> 00:26:54.134
I mean, yeah.

00:26:54.134 --> 00:26:57.734
Sometimes when I do pro-line I just feel like punky, but I think it's just, I don't.

00:26:58.890 --> 00:26:59.940
Blame it on ketosis.

00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:10.259
I just blame it on the fact that I'm having 800 calories a day so, and ProLon is totally marketing themselves as a ketogenic diet now,

00:27:10.259 --> 00:27:11.369
apparently, yes.

00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:19.740
I'm sure that because people don't know what a fasting mimicking diet is that terminology hasn't caught on quite as well as ketogenic.

00:27:19.829 --> 00:27:22.079
And so I'm guessing their marketing team has on top of.

00:27:23.234 --> 00:27:23.684
Yeah.

00:27:23.714 --> 00:27:28.605
And like the big thing that you see in the news also now is the low carbohydrate diet.

00:27:28.605 --> 00:27:31.994
And so ketogenic is included in the low carbohydrate

00:27:31.994 --> 00:27:32.325
diet.

00:27:32.625 --> 00:27:32.894
Yeah.

00:27:32.894 --> 00:27:42.855
And I think low carbohydrate diet, I think of as, not as deprived, I mean, I know that there's diets out that are really low carbohydrate, but I kind of think of them as like none of us, especially.

00:27:43.515 --> 00:27:53.444
We middle-aged women and beyond should be eating a lot of carbohydrate in our diet, just because it's not great for our weight and our waistline, especially postmenopausally whatever age you are.

00:27:53.595 --> 00:27:55.125
If you're biologically post-menopause.

00:27:55.859 --> 00:27:57.450
It's really hard to maintain normal weight.

00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:00.329
If you eat a lot of carbs, unless you do a lot of exercise to burn it off,

00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:05.670
um, things that are really good for people of a certain age like fiber.

00:28:06.029 --> 00:28:08.549
I mean, those are all, you know, those are all carbs.

00:28:08.789 --> 00:28:17.549
So, you know, it's, it's, it's that whole, um, refined carbohydrates versus whole fibers, whole fibers, whole carbs.

00:28:18.150 --> 00:28:19.170
I don't know, complex.

00:28:20.009 --> 00:28:20.880
Complex carbs.

00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:21.180
Yeah.

00:28:21.210 --> 00:28:21.599
There you go.

00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:28.769
Yeah, because even, even a potato, I mean, people are like, oh, potato is all starchy, that's all glucose.

00:28:28.769 --> 00:28:35.819
But now we know there are resistant starches in the potato that are good for your colon health and good for the bacteria, then habit you.

00:28:35.819 --> 00:28:39.329
So not every carb, you know, is evil.

00:28:39.329 --> 00:28:42.059
Like almost everything, you know, there's a good and a bad.

00:28:42.539 --> 00:28:44.579
So this whole truth about series.

00:28:45.450 --> 00:28:49.980
Part of the reason talking it out in the podcast makes more sense than even writing it out.

00:28:49.980 --> 00:29:01.349
Because as much as we'd like things to be black and white, good and bad, there's a lot of gray area and there's context and there's the individual biochemistry, like what will it do in that person who has such and such history of whatever cancer.

00:29:02.529 --> 00:29:06.910
That's why this is, this is good that we're doing the myth-busting in a long format, I think.

00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:09.460
And plus neither of us want to write blog posts.

00:29:09.490 --> 00:29:11.049
So it makes it easier.

00:29:11.109 --> 00:29:11.829
There's that?

00:29:12.339 --> 00:29:12.910
There's that?

00:29:13.660 --> 00:29:14.109
All right.

00:29:14.109 --> 00:29:15.460
So, so side effects.

00:29:15.460 --> 00:29:17.680
So, um, they're typically short term.

00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:25.869
It would be things like nausea, vomiting, headache, fatigue, dizziness, insomnia, poor exercise tolerance, constipation.

00:29:27.134 --> 00:29:30.464
And those can happen from between a few days to a few weeks.

00:29:30.555 --> 00:29:43.545
And just making sure that, you know, if somebody is on a medically prescribed ketogenic diet, make sure that you are getting enough fluids and electrolytes to kind of, um, help with, with some of the.

00:29:44.325 --> 00:29:47.055
The symptoms and those are the short-term symptoms

00:29:47.505 --> 00:29:52.664
and it, when it is medically prescribed, I think that very few people should be doing this alone.

00:29:52.664 --> 00:29:53.954
You have to be getting labs.

00:29:53.954 --> 00:30:00.045
You have to be checking for, you know, what your calcium is doing, what your uric acid is doing, what your sodium is doing.

00:30:00.045 --> 00:30:02.595
You have to make sure that you're getting the micronutrients.

00:30:02.684 --> 00:30:04.275
In addition to the macro nutrients.

00:30:05.170 --> 00:30:11.650
Medium chain triglycerides, help meet and chain triglycerides like that found in coconut oil oils.

00:30:11.650 --> 00:30:14.740
Like think that's how people see it because I've seen it at Costco, right.

00:30:14.740 --> 00:30:15.339
MCT or

00:30:15.369 --> 00:30:16.690
oil MCT oil.

00:30:16.690 --> 00:30:16.990
Okay.

00:30:17.289 --> 00:30:21.339
Um, it's helpful because it boosts the production of ketones.

00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:25.000
So that medium chain triglycerides are saturated fats.

00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:26.109
They're medium chain.

00:30:26.230 --> 00:30:29.589
So butter has short chains of saturated fat lard has long chains.

00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:34.180
Coconut happens to be a medium chain it's absorbed without any.

00:30:34.994 --> 00:30:40.934
Carrier it's absorbed right through, go straight to the liver and the liver is responsible for making the ketones.

00:30:41.234 --> 00:30:49.694
And so it's a very fast, and you kind of facilitate the production of ketones by taking medium chain triglycerides and getting some calories through that.

00:30:49.994 --> 00:30:56.115
So just for the record when people are doing this, but I still say everyone should be working with someone who's knowledgeable in ketogenic diets.

00:30:56.204 --> 00:30:59.295
No one should be doing this kind of on their own when they're doing therapeutic diet.

00:30:59.414 --> 00:30:59.625
Oh,

00:30:59.625 --> 00:31:00.494
absolutely not.

00:31:00.525 --> 00:31:01.154
Absolutely.

00:31:01.154 --> 00:31:01.724
They need.

00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:07.049
Somebody who is properly trained and not just like, oh, I took an online course.

00:31:07.049 --> 00:31:11.099
I mean, I'm talking like registered dietician or a doctor who knows exactly what they're doing.

00:31:11.309 --> 00:31:16.019
Um, there are some possible long-term side effects and you were talking about like the liver.

00:31:16.019 --> 00:31:19.710
So like fatty liver could be a possible long-term side effects.

00:31:20.259 --> 00:31:24.640
Low protein, mineral, vitamin deficiencies, and kidney stones.

00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:27.339
Cause you're also talking about like looking at uric acid levels.

00:31:27.609 --> 00:31:29.829
So those are other things that may happen.

00:31:30.309 --> 00:31:37.839
Um, oh, and then in the news, in the news, there's a keto rash that can happen too.

00:31:37.869 --> 00:31:38.109
Huh?

00:31:38.170 --> 00:31:41.140
Called Perrigo pigmentosa.

00:31:41.230 --> 00:31:45.880
And it's this very sort of itchy rash that can happen when somebody goes into ketosis.

00:31:45.940 --> 00:31:46.329
Okay.

00:31:46.569 --> 00:31:48.009
I haven't seen that just for the record.

00:31:48.069 --> 00:31:48.700
Oh, sorry.

00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:50.900
Common it is, but I, yeah.

00:31:50.930 --> 00:31:51.480
And I'm not,

00:31:51.619 --> 00:32:02.390
I'm not sure either, um, anyone with diabetes or who is taking any sort of medication for diabetes, whether it's insulin or, you know, other antidiabetic medications.

00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:04.339
Um, this is why you need some.

00:32:04.835 --> 00:32:12.184
You know, a professional, especially a medical professional, who's watching you to make sure that your blood sugars don't go too low when doing this.

00:32:12.184 --> 00:32:31.595
And then because it is super high-fat diet, anybody with a history of pancreatitis or any pre-existing liver disorders, liver failure, any issues with metabolizing fat to start with, there are some people who have carnitine deficiencies, so that would

00:32:31.595 --> 00:32:32.914
be a contraindication.

00:32:33.035 --> 00:32:33.634
And can I.

00:32:34.505 --> 00:32:35.974
Folks why that is sure.

00:32:36.605 --> 00:32:39.035
Carnitine is the necessary amino acids.

00:32:39.809 --> 00:32:45.900
For shuttling, fatty acids across the membrane and making the energy from them in the mitochondria.

00:32:46.049 --> 00:32:51.329
So the cell itself needs carnitine to use fatty acids as an energy source.

00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:51.480
Yeah.

00:32:51.509 --> 00:32:51.660
Yeah.

00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:51.839
So

00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:56.640
if you don't have, if you have a deficiency in that, then you're not going to be able to utilize it as energy and.

00:32:57.490 --> 00:33:01.930
There's a liver condition called porphyria, or it's a collection of porphyrias.

00:33:02.500 --> 00:33:07.029
Um, and then a kinase deficiency as well.

00:33:07.029 --> 00:33:12.880
PKD is another contraindication and these are things that are not common, but they happen.

00:33:12.910 --> 00:33:19.480
And so if somebody suspects that they may have one of these conditions, then that's when it would be, um,

00:33:19.779 --> 00:33:20.529
contraindicated.

00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:21.130
Yeah.

00:33:21.130 --> 00:33:22.450
And that's, you know, it's interesting.

00:33:23.265 --> 00:33:29.505
They will often pool information on ketogenic therapeutic ketogenic diets and the modified Atkins diet.

00:33:29.565 --> 00:33:34.424
And I think that's because the modified Atkins diet allows a little more protein.

00:33:34.984 --> 00:33:41.984
It's still a high fat diet, and it's still a low carbohydrate, but it's a little looser with the protein than a strict ketogenic diet.

00:33:42.525 --> 00:33:43.005
And I wonder.

00:33:43.795 --> 00:33:47.994
Some of that is because that's the introduction into the ketogenic diet.

00:33:48.025 --> 00:33:50.785
Like when someone has epilepsy, I know that they do that first.

00:33:51.174 --> 00:33:53.755
If that doesn't control the seizures, they'll go on to ketogenic.

00:33:53.964 --> 00:33:56.994
Oh, they do Atkins first really modified Atkins diet.

00:33:56.994 --> 00:33:59.454
It's a very specific version of the Atkins diet.

00:33:59.484 --> 00:33:59.755
Yeah.

00:33:59.785 --> 00:34:01.075
So it's called modified Atkins diet.

00:34:01.105 --> 00:34:02.424
That's how it appears in the literature.

00:34:02.994 --> 00:34:06.025
Where they, they add MCT oil specifically to that diet.

00:34:06.204 --> 00:34:12.594
So there is another product that I have seen patients and they've asked mostly for weight loss, if they can use it.

00:34:12.594 --> 00:34:15.054
And that's those exoticness ketones.

00:34:15.355 --> 00:34:15.744
What do you know

00:34:15.744 --> 00:34:16.394
about that?

00:34:16.945 --> 00:34:17.755
I don't know.

00:34:18.355 --> 00:34:23.905
Being a naturopathic doctor, it seems wrong to add ketones to somebody's normal glucose.

00:34:23.994 --> 00:34:24.565
You know what I mean?

00:34:24.684 --> 00:34:26.755
And I mean, are people following a specific diet?

00:34:27.510 --> 00:34:33.119
And doing these or are they just eating the same old, same old, and then taking these pills, thinking that it's going to help.

00:34:33.150 --> 00:34:34.199
Like, I'm not quite sure.

00:34:34.289 --> 00:34:39.150
I guess I should have really researched more about exogenous ketones, but that was just something I was curious about.

00:34:39.750 --> 00:34:41.219
I've seen people bring those

00:34:41.219 --> 00:34:45.329
in, I know there's evidence about ketones themselves helping build muscle.

00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:50.480
So one of the things that's happened as a matter of, you know, course in some.

00:34:51.190 --> 00:34:54.340
Studies, I can think of one in particular that was done in Germany.

00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:56.980
They did radiation with these patients.

00:34:57.070 --> 00:34:57.429
They had.

00:34:58.364 --> 00:35:05.054
Ketogenic diet and they watched their body composition and yes, people lost weight.

00:35:05.085 --> 00:35:13.574
One of the important things is you got to watch for that in a ketogenic diet, any ketogenic diet, and most of the, and I didn't mention this, I should have mentioned this earlier.

00:35:13.635 --> 00:35:15.644
A lot of the information we have on a keto diet.

00:35:16.135 --> 00:35:18.144
Is not normal calorie diet.

00:35:18.144 --> 00:35:20.755
It's a low calorie diet on top of being ketogenic.

00:35:21.355 --> 00:35:21.594
It's

00:35:21.594 --> 00:35:23.304
like 600 to 800 calories

00:35:23.304 --> 00:35:23.905
or something.

00:35:23.934 --> 00:35:27.025
Some of it, yeah, there's no way you could actually live on these diets.

00:35:27.025 --> 00:35:32.844
Sometimes they're too deprived calorically, but one wonders, you know, is that part of the therapy?

00:35:32.844 --> 00:35:39.295
So now you've got deprivation of calories, deprivation of carbohydrates, deprivation of amino acids, and then high fat just to keep.

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.269
Halfway satiated and on Kio fuel.

00:35:43.869 --> 00:35:53.289
Um, in any case, what they found in that study I was referring to with the radiation is when they watch body composition, there was a rapid loss of water weight.

00:35:53.409 --> 00:35:56.260
So when people go on a ketogenic diet, they'll often lose weight quickly.

00:35:56.260 --> 00:36:00.610
And, and it's a lot of fluid extracellular fluid kind of just falls off quickly within days.

00:36:00.670 --> 00:36:01.179
And then.

00:36:01.875 --> 00:36:03.554
We'll go, you'll burn fat.

00:36:03.614 --> 00:36:06.885
As long as you're exercising, though, you will build muscle.

00:36:07.244 --> 00:36:13.635
So it does seem that mechanistically the ketones do help support muscle mass.

00:36:13.934 --> 00:36:16.664
Of course, muscles are always use it or lose it kind of thing.

00:36:16.695 --> 00:36:17.114
Anyway.

00:36:17.125 --> 00:36:24.255
So you still have to challenge the muscle, but I'm wondering if maybe the raspberry ketones might be working along those lines of helping one's muscle mass.

00:36:25.170 --> 00:36:29.519
The higher your muscle mass, the more calories you consume when you're not doing anything I have to

00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:30.150
exercise.

00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.679
It sounds like you still have to exercise and you still probably have to eat a decent.

00:36:35.550 --> 00:36:44.699
If not low calorie diet, which, you know, I guess isn't really recommended anymore doing like super low calories for dieting because you're just going to rebound.

00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:51.329
Um, so anything else that you want to add on, um, cautions concerns, side effects of a

00:36:51.329 --> 00:36:52.260
ketogenic diet.

00:36:52.349 --> 00:36:54.269
I mentioned the uric acid earlier.

00:36:55.409 --> 00:37:00.840
That has been a serious complication and people in studies out there, if they let that go, that's why that has to be checked.

00:37:01.110 --> 00:37:05.670
And again, with people, you know, can't get into a nutritionist for awhile, but they want to start on this right away.

00:37:05.670 --> 00:37:08.820
The modified Atkins diet is less stress on the.

00:37:09.630 --> 00:37:12.420
Then in a full ketogenic therapeutic diet.

00:37:12.780 --> 00:37:13.289
Well, hopefully,

00:37:13.289 --> 00:37:13.570
yeah.

00:37:13.570 --> 00:37:28.590
And I mean, hopefully someone can find, um, if it's a cancer person finding an oncology trained dietician who can either guide someone through it or, you know, find other options for them because it's not like one diet.

00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:33.119
Cure cancer, whether it's ketogenic or whatever kind of diet.

00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:34.679
Yeah, I guess that's that's.

00:37:34.710 --> 00:37:41.099
The other cautionary is some cancers are known to use fatty acids as fuel one that comes to mind off the top of my head is triple negative breast case.

00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:45.360
So not all cancers use glucose as fuel.

00:37:45.389 --> 00:37:47.010
That's a fallacy that's out there.

00:37:47.190 --> 00:38:00.929
That Warburg effect where, you know, we kind of, uh, about, I don't know, 15 years ago was all the rage about the Warburg effect and now cancer cells use this shuttling, the glucose off into glycolysis, and there's this whole theory around it.

00:38:00.929 --> 00:38:01.050
But.

00:38:01.829 --> 00:38:07.800
It's still uses other means of making energy, besides the Warburg effect for people who know what that is.

00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:12.599
But some cancers can specifically use fatty acids for energy production.

00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:16.170
So, um, triple negative breast cancer is the one that I would say don't do this with.

00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:16.650
Okay.

00:38:16.650 --> 00:38:24.179
So yeah, we'll put some things simple if there is something simple so that people can learn about the Warburg effect and yeah.

00:38:24.179 --> 00:38:25.260
See that's what I mean.

00:38:25.289 --> 00:38:25.530
Yeah.

00:38:25.530 --> 00:38:27.659
There's, there's not one diet fits all.

00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:28.369
No.

00:38:29.844 --> 00:38:39.625
I get adamant about that because I've been doing this for 20 plus years, and I will tell you if there was a diet that could control cancer across the board, I wouldn't be working so hard.

00:38:39.775 --> 00:38:46.405
I'd have a little place on top of the hill in a nice natural setting and put everyone on that diet, just check in with cancer and check out without it.

00:38:46.434 --> 00:38:46.735
Right.

00:38:46.855 --> 00:38:52.704
I mean, if it really, if we really had that, but it's not that simple, you know, mostly because cancers are not one thing.

00:38:52.735 --> 00:38:56.844
There are various cancers and various metabolic ways of getting what they need.

00:38:57.324 --> 00:38:59.909
Um, I mean, I wish it was simpler.

00:39:00.210 --> 00:39:04.619
That's the, that's the, uh, truth about ketogenic diet is it's not that simple, right?

00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:07.530
Oh, nice way to bring that back around.

00:39:08.190 --> 00:39:09.809
So we're going to take another quick break.

00:39:09.809 --> 00:39:16.739
And when we come back, it's the return of the unofficial theme song, and we're going to have a few shout outs to, to people who have bought

00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:18.179
us coffees, people in our.

00:39:18.724 --> 00:39:21.155
People in our pod who buys coffee,

00:39:21.215 --> 00:39:24.454
because as you learned from her story, Tina really loves her caffeine.

00:39:26.704 --> 00:39:28.295
She's actually buying coffee.

00:39:28.355 --> 00:39:29.284
We'll be right back.

00:39:30.364 --> 00:39:33.335
There is so much more we have to learn about the ketogenic diet.

00:39:33.815 --> 00:39:36.574
Current studies are not only looking at the diets effect on camp.

00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:44.960
But also when Kadima traumatic brain injury, PCOM alcohol withdrawal, and the diets influence on the gut microbiome.

00:39:48.619 --> 00:39:48.889
All right.

00:39:48.889 --> 00:39:52.070
So we're back and the reveal, the big reveal.

00:39:52.099 --> 00:39:52.519
Cause I don't know.

00:39:53.125 --> 00:39:53.934
Is the song.

00:39:54.324 --> 00:39:54.715
So

00:39:55.014 --> 00:39:56.755
I did a little search.

00:39:56.844 --> 00:39:57.775
I did a Dr.

00:39:57.775 --> 00:39:58.644
Google search for

00:39:58.644 --> 00:40:01.914
songs that had keto or ketosis or ketogenic.

00:40:02.304 --> 00:40:07.735
And there is a song by a Grammy nominated American guitarist basis.

00:40:07.735 --> 00:40:12.715
Songwriter podcast host did not see that part and producer based in Minneapolis.

00:40:13.164 --> 00:40:17.364
Um, his name is Corey Wong and he has this song called ketosis.

00:40:17.364 --> 00:40:19.105
And I have to send it to Tina because.

00:40:20.005 --> 00:40:20.965
Funky.

00:40:20.965 --> 00:40:22.434
It's like our theme song.

00:40:22.434 --> 00:40:25.824
It's like kind of this like space, age, bachelor

00:40:25.824 --> 00:40:27.355
pad kind of feel well.

00:40:27.355 --> 00:40:29.965
Now that I'm like an Uber editor.

00:40:29.994 --> 00:40:31.014
I can add it right now.

00:40:31.375 --> 00:40:33.144
Oh, well you can't.

00:40:33.204 --> 00:40:34.795
Y I can do excerpts.

00:40:35.065 --> 00:40:35.275
We

00:40:35.275 --> 00:40:37.824
can do excerpts really of songs.

00:40:38.244 --> 00:40:39.054
I don't know.

00:40:39.085 --> 00:40:40.675
You can it's artistic license.

00:40:40.704 --> 00:40:41.425
Yeah, we totally can.

00:40:42.554 --> 00:40:48.195
Anyways, maybe we'll include it or maybe you have to go to our spot and check it out.

00:40:48.195 --> 00:40:53.385
Cause we will, I will add this to our Spotify song list, but yeah, I was like thrilled.

00:40:53.385 --> 00:40:58.875
The first one I heard was like really kind of one of those, like I was like, technically.

00:41:00.655 --> 00:41:03.565
And I was like, oh gosh, I don't think I could include this in our, in our playlist.

00:41:04.494 --> 00:41:06.445
But this one is very, it's very us.

00:41:06.744 --> 00:41:09.534
I think you'll like, all right, I'm excited to hear

00:41:09.534 --> 00:41:09.655
it.

00:41:09.775 --> 00:41:10.315
All right.

00:41:10.675 --> 00:41:19.945
And so, and now we're gonna say thank you to some of the people who have bought us coffees and you can also buy us a coffee.

00:41:20.005 --> 00:41:27.894
The link is in our show notes and it helps us with hiring out different services, like getting.

00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:29.820
An editor.

00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:40.619
So right now we have enough to buy a multi build hat where each bill on the hat has a different thing where once it's produced and then you turn the hat and then one that says editor, and then one says talent, and then you turn the hat.

00:41:40.619 --> 00:41:42.090
So there's got like five bills around it.

00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:44.159
No, we can afford that though.

00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:44.789
No.

00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:45.659
Yeah.

00:41:46.460 --> 00:41:48.239
I think that can afford that.

00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:51.000
But yeah, anything that.

00:41:51.820 --> 00:42:03.849
That you can donate is much appreciated, not only to fuel Tina's caffeine habit, but also just to kind of keep us going for the day-to-day costs of running a podcast.

00:42:03.849 --> 00:42:06.489
So big shout outs to

00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:08.110
Kristin Amy.

00:42:08.954 --> 00:42:12.434
Lynne Adam Brogan,

00:42:13.755 --> 00:42:15.885
Terry, and most importantly, thank you.

00:42:15.885 --> 00:42:16.695
Tina's mom.

00:42:16.724 --> 00:42:17.474
Thanks mom.

00:42:20.684 --> 00:42:22.155
Most important of all.

00:42:22.155 --> 00:42:22.635
Thank you.

00:42:22.635 --> 00:42:23.414
Tina's mom.

00:42:23.474 --> 00:42:24.465
I wouldn't be here without her.

00:42:24.554 --> 00:42:25.184
That's true.

00:42:26.474 --> 00:42:29.804
And you know, the cancer pod wouldn't be here without you.

00:42:29.864 --> 00:42:30.644
So

00:42:30.675 --> 00:42:31.724
thank you Tina's mom.

00:42:31.815 --> 00:42:32.025
Yes.

00:42:32.114 --> 00:42:32.684
Thanks everybody.

00:42:32.684 --> 00:42:33.494
I really appreciate it.

00:42:33.804 --> 00:42:35.385
We really, really appreciate it.

00:42:35.715 --> 00:42:37.364
And we got big plans, so hopefully we can.

00:42:38.059 --> 00:42:41.360
Roll out some of those more in depth discussions.

00:42:41.449 --> 00:42:42.920
Oh, we also have a newsletter.

00:42:42.949 --> 00:42:45.139
So if you haven't gotten that, go to the website and sign up for that.

00:42:45.889 --> 00:42:46.159
Yeah.

00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:47.570
The first newsletter came out.

00:42:47.630 --> 00:42:53.030
You can sign up for it in the link in the bio, or you can go to the website.

00:42:53.059 --> 00:42:54.980
Um, you can send us fan mail.

00:42:54.980 --> 00:43:01.099
If there's something you want to say, that's nice or that isn't nice, but it's constructive and very polite.

00:43:02.175 --> 00:43:05.085
If it's not nice, I am going to read it.

00:43:05.085 --> 00:43:05.355
And I'm

00:43:05.355 --> 00:43:10.394
going to say your name and on Instagram, we are nearly at a thousand followers.

00:43:10.635 --> 00:43:10.965
Well, that's

00:43:10.965 --> 00:43:11.324
right.

00:43:11.324 --> 00:43:18.434
And I want to try, I want to try to figure out some sort of, um, like a, like a giveaway for when we get to a thousand followers.

00:43:18.434 --> 00:43:21.690
So who knows by the time this episode comes out, We may be at a

00:43:21.690 --> 00:43:22.530
thousand followers.

00:43:22.619 --> 00:43:27.900
And that reminds me, we're doing things the hard way, because we could pay for 5,000, 10,000 or even 20,000 followers.

00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:28.739
But we won't do that.

00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:37.650
We have 976 organic real people out there that follow on Instagram, all because of Leah's hard work and artistic talents.

00:43:38.130 --> 00:43:38.219
So.

00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:40.619
Yeah, we got to get to a thousand.

00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:42.420
So if you have an account go over there and follow us with ya.

00:43:42.750 --> 00:43:43.530
That's right.

00:43:43.829 --> 00:43:50.369
And if you have friends share the account and share this podcast and rate and review and all

00:43:50.369 --> 00:43:52.590
of that good stuff, do all that good stuff that helps us out.

00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:54.659
And, uh, yeah, we'll keep it up.

00:43:54.750 --> 00:43:55.170
So

00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:55.949
on that note,

00:43:56.190 --> 00:43:56.670
I'm Dr.

00:43:56.670 --> 00:43:58.170
Leah Sherman and I'm Dr.

00:43:58.170 --> 00:44:01.139
Tina Kaeser, and this is the cancer pod until next time.

00:44:01.739 --> 00:44:02.010
Thanks for

00:44:02.010 --> 00:44:03.360
listening to the cancer pod.

00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:07.769
Remember to subscribe, review and rate us wherever you get your podcast.

00:44:08.820 --> 00:44:13.769
Follow us on social media for updates and as always, this is not medical advice.

00:44:14.070 --> 00:44:15.539
These are our opinions.

00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:19.110
Talk to your doctor, but for changing anything related to your treatment plan.

00:44:20.099 --> 00:44:22.079
The cancer pod is hosted by me, Dr.

00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:22.889
Lee Sherman.

00:44:23.190 --> 00:44:23.789
And by Dr.

00:44:23.789 --> 00:44:26.849
Tina Kaeser music is by Kevin McCloud.

00:44:27.449 --> 00:44:28.500
See you next time.

00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:51.570
Was going to be a hot mess today.