Reminiscing... Our 50th episode on Integrative Oncology!

Introduction

Tina 0:00

Let's do it. Leia. We're reminiscing.

Leah 0:05

Hurry now don't be late. So yeah, it's our 50th episode and we

Tina 0:11

We're not dancing in the dark and we're not walking in the park, but we are reminiscing.

Leah 0:14

right. I'm sitting in a closet and you're sitting in an apartment Remini.

Tina 0:18

because I, alright, I'm gonna bring up some data, data points. Here you come. I gotta, I gotta see our data points here.

Leah 0:25

Tina has a cold.

Tina 0:26

I do have a cold, so if I sound a little off,

Leah 0:29

If she's sniffly

Tina 0:30

if my otherwise super smooth radio voice sounds rough.

Leah 0:36

Your your your dulce uh, NPR voice.

Tina 0:39

Yes. All right. So we created 1,281 minutes of new content, and that's more than 95% of other creators in the health and fitness category. woo Woo.

Leah 0:48

Woo. Insert sound of people going. Woo.

Tina 0:52

inserted applause. That's right.

Leah 0:54

So, um, in case you're wondering what we're doing here, uh, we are the Cancer pod and we're celebrating our 50th episode by reminiscing about from day one when this was a baby podcast. Cuz I guess we're not considered a baby anymore. Are we a teenage podcast? Are we a tw.

Tina 1:11

I would call us a twing cuz it's, I think this is our awkward stage where we, we have a growth spurt.

Leah 1:16

Totally. Totally. We are. It's a, we are a tween podcast. Not a podcast for tweens,

Tina 1:22

Correct. But we do okay. Sometimes we feel like we're the only ones with our struggles. Sometimes we feel a little awkward. Sometimes we even get a little insecure. We'll admit it right here, right now. But ultimately we know our potential is good

Leah 1:36

right. When we grow up, when we grow up, we're gonna be somebody. People are gonna listen to us

Tina 1:43

Interestingly, in the last couple years, especially since Covid, a lot of people started podcasts and then dropped them. So we actually do have more episodes in a longer history than, I don't know, well over 50%, maybe 70% of podcasts that had started in the last couple years. So there is sticktuitiveness stick to itness, is that, how am I saying that? Right?

Leah 2:02

sticktuitiveness.

Tina 2:03

Stick. Just stick to it.

Leah 2:07

Just do it. Oh, I'm allowed to say that. Am I allowed to say someone else's?

Tina 2:11

Well, I think Nike will only come after you if you make billions of dollars, but I think we're safe.

Leah 2:14

Oh, good, good.

Tina 2:16

So, just so you know, our podcast has reached 33 different countries via Spotify. Yeah. So most of our listeners that are foreign in other countries, and this is Belgium and France and Germany and Australia and all around the world, there is always Bhutan. There's some spots in, um, Western Africa and Eastern Africa. and sorry to name the countries cause that's, you know, this is a pet peeve of mine when people just say Africa So there are people listening in Ghana and there are people listening in Ethiopia.

Leah 2:41

Awesome.

Tina 2:42

Um, and South Africa, I should mention that too, So anyways, this is exciting. So we are getting out there, we're reaching more people than we possibly could if we were doing this live in auditoriums, we'll work our way to Madison Square Garden. Right? I mean, that's the only way you could reach more people than you could on a podcast is go to like gigantic venues and be Taylor Swift or something.

Leah 2:59

Madison Square Garden. Taylor Swift Opening Act, the Cancer pod Get on that. Tay Tay,

Tina 3:05

wait a second. I thought you said our audience isn't tweens.

Leah 3:07

I thought you, I thought you, you liked Taylor Swift. Anyways, we're getting off the subject. We're gonna, yeah, so, so bringing it back around, um, yeah. 50 episodes on a whole bunch of different subjects, but the commonality is cancer. Um, we, I don't wanna say I, I, I mean, are we, we're not trying to normalize cancer, but we're just trying to make a conversation. I don't, is, is there anything wrong with normalizing cancer? I.

Tina 3:31

Well, it depends. You ask, I think when it becomes normal in your life, there's nothing wrong with it, but people who are distant from it who haven't had to experience it firsthand either as a caregiver or themselves, you know, it is called the big C for a reason. I think it's out there lurking when people don't like to look at it head on. So I do think that there is a little bit of that hesitance, and putting it in our title is a little bold of us because that means that we know that some folks are not gonna hit the play button because of that.

Leah 3:57

Right. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I guess cancer is so normal in my life just because of, you know, what we do for a living. And then also through my, last however many years life experience. So I guess the pasted eight years, you know, it really became, um, more of a normal, unfortunately. So, but yeah, it's still, it, it still is scary to a lot of people and it's scary to people, obviously for the right reasons. But I don't know, looking on social media, a lot of people talk about losing family and friends not to cancer, but because maybe they had a cancer diagnosis and the people drift out of their lives. So it's just, you know, just being able to have conversations I think is really important. Um, so that non-cancer people, if they listen to our podcast, maybe they can help to identify more with their friends and family members who are going through it,

Tina 4:44

Well, and you know, I think that because people turn away, there is a certain level of denial in our, culture because in the United States anyways, one in two men and one in three women will be diagnosed with cancer in their lifetimes. So, you know, there's a pretty good odds that it's gonna touch every single person's life at some point. If it's not themselves, it's, it's their loved.

Leah 5:02

right.

Tina 5:03

So it's, it is a certain denial to think that it's not gonna touch you in your lifetime. So, but that's not, I mean, that's kind of a bummer. That's No, that's no way to talk.

Leah 5:12

Not, not on our, not on our anniversary party, our episode party, whatever this is.

Tina 5:17

I know. We should have gotten dressed up and like made it like a, the real deal.

Leah 5:20

I know. I thought about that. And then I got cold, so I put on a sweater

Tina 5:24

Yeah. Would the, would the clacking of ice cubes in, in my mocktail or cocktail be distracting?

Leah 5:30

possibly.

Tina 5:31

instead I sit here with a head cold and a hot cup of.

Leah 5:33

I know, I'm like, instead, we'll slurp our team, but um, you know, we party in our own ways. So something I did, which I think you saw on Instagram stories was I put out a question like, is there some burning question that you have after listening to one of our episodes and we got a few responses. I just have to say in general, like from the beginning we were doing Instagram lives kind of to try to answer questions that people might have from the episodes. And it didn't seem to matter what we were talking about. I mean, we did start off talking about hot flashes and so this kind of did, kind of trigger similar type questions, but a lot of people have questions about aromatase inhibitors, tamoxifen, and the side effects. And so I'm just saying this because we have talked about doing separate episode for that and so we really gotta get on

Tina 6:17

All right. 2020.

Leah 6:18

That's right. That's our, uh, new Year's resolution. We're gonna talk about.

Tina 6:22

Yes. And I think I mentioned to you, and maybe I haven't mentioned it on the podcast, that when we talk about these things, visuals will be important. So maybe we migrate some of this over to YouTube so we can, uh, have a real lesson with some visuals that would be helpful for the audio.

Leah 6:36

Yeah, no, that would be great. That would be great.

Tina 6:38

All right. I'll put it on the to-do list.

Leah 6:39

Yeah. Our honey-do list

Tina 6:42

Oh, yeah.

Leah 6:43

So the, and the reason I said that is cuz the question, there are three of the questions, um, that are breast cancer and like aromatase, Tamoxifen related. Um, but you know, we're just not, we're not only a breast cancer podcast. We just, a lot of people that listen to us are breast cancer patients, survivors, and, you know, and I'm one of.

Tina 7:05

Did you say you want more stats? One in eight women will have breast cancer in their lifetime in the United States anyway.

Leah 7:09

Did I say? I don't remember saying that, but that is, that is a stat Yeah. And so I am one of those eight women, and so it is something that is close to me and taken off of me. But anyways. Okay. I digress. Let's answer the questions from Instagram and then we'll kind of go through and, talk about memories of the past 50 episodes, 49 episodes.

Tina 7:30

I'm a little dull, so I'm gonna let you lead and I'll just chime in probably with statistics. I'm

Leah 7:37

I like that. I, I like how you're like, I'm not feeling so well. I'm a little dull, so I'll just bring up with all the numbers.

Tina 7:43

It's easier.

Leah 7:44

It's easier for me than the words. Okay. So let's start off, um, let's just take a quick break and then we'll come back with our questions from

Tina 7:52

All right. I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the science-y one

Leah 7:58

and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside

Tina 8:01

And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care

Leah 8:05

But we're not your doctors

Tina 8:08

This is for education entertainment and informational purposes only

Leah 8:12

do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor

Tina 8:16

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own

Leah 8:22

Welcome to the cancer pod Okay, we're back and we are reading questions from Instagram that I solicited in anticipation of this episode. So the first question is

Tamoxifen. Why am I chubby and unmotivated?

Leah 8:41

weight loss and Tamoxifen. Why am I so chubby and unmotivated? So if I recall, there was not any correlation between weight gain and tamoxifen in studies, but everyone, including myself, everyone, most everyone. I'm not gonna generalize cuz I have met people who've lost weight on Tamoxifen, like unintentionally. But, um, so many women talk about that they gain weight when they're put on Tamoxifen. So what's that about?

Tina 9:09

Let me ask you this. Is it a sense of weight gain? Because I think of us as sensing weight distribution changes. You know, our pants might get tighter or whatever, where our weight shifts. I mean, does the scale actually change or does the change to the body, which might entail loss of muscle in addition to fat deposition happening in areas that that didn't happen before? Maybe that's what kind of triggers it so the scale doesn't look as dramatic as one feels. Could that be possible?

Leah 9:37

Uh, it could be, but for me, I was one weight at the end of my chemo. I did not lose weight during chemo. And then when I started on Tamoxifen, I think, um, I gained at least 20 pounds.

Tina 9:52

Oh, that's a lot.

Leah 9:53

Yeah, it was pretty significant and I used to blame my implants, but they're not that heavy but it was a good thing to blame. So yeah, clothes didn't fit because I did have implants, which didn't quite fit into my, my prior wardrobe. but yeah, I am only, I think since I honestly, like, since I started doing ProLon, I, and it took a long time because with ProLon, like I would lose five pounds and then, you know, gain it back and then you lose five pounds and you gain it back. But then I think over time of doing it, like a couple years, I did start to go down in weight and I don't know if I have more muscle mass. I don't know anyways. But yes, I, I thought that we had talked about this in a live ones and for some reason, ugh, we're not talking about the chemo brain, but, you know, it hits me every once in a while. Um, wasn't there a correlation between women who did chemo and then took tamoxifen and weight gain?

Tina 10:44

That would not be surprising. I don't remember the episode or the IG live that we did, but I think the steroid that's often given alongside the chemotherapy is known to lead to weight gain for a lot of people going through that particular treatment. Anyone going through chemo who's getting a steroid is Dexamethasone is usually given alongside certain chemotherapy drugs. A lot of people gain weight because of it, and I don't know if it's that combined with lowering estrogen afterwards or the effects of tamoxifen on the gut biome. Cause I think some of this has to do with what's going on in the in the gut and what the biome is doing, the bacteria in the gut because we know that certain gut bacteria lead. to a leaner body and certain gut bacteria lead to the preservation of calories, is our way of saying it. So meaning, you know, you if you put a hundred calories in your mouth, 90 of 'em go into your bloodstream with certain bacteria. And if you have a different set of bacteria in your gut, maybe when you put a hundred in your mouth, only 70, go into your bloodstream. So you, this gut biome might be the, the link between whether this happens or not. And I'm gonna guess cuz you're taking tamoxifen every day. Tamoxifen is also affecting the gut biome, there's no doubt.

Leah 11:46

Right, and I mean, as I've mentioned before, um, in the Leia episodes, I was also given guerin, which put me into menopause. So I'm not like your typical Tamoxifen patient where I was given tamoxifen because you have to be in menopause for like two years after completing chemotherapy. I think. Before they define you as being, postmenopausal. And then they were gonna switch me over and then I said no. So, um, I said, no, I'm good with the tamoxifen. Let's keep it for a while. Um, yeah, so the unmotivated part, that part, I don't remember who asked this question, and I don't know what else is going on in their world, but I know depression is a really big thing that, as we all know, not only happens to people while they're in treatment, but even when you come out on the other end, if you come out on the other end, there's a lot of depression. If you don't, there's a lot of depression. It doesn't have to be like what we stereotypically think, but just even lack of motivation can be a sign of depression.

Tina 12:44

Mm-hmm. Well, and it's interesting cuz I think this effect is gonna be more dramatic in people who are premenopausal over postmenopausal women. So perimenopausal, you can flip a coin. I'm not sure which direction it's gonna go for those people, but I say this because Tamoxifen in particular is thought to be slightly estrogenic on the brain, not as estrogenic as. your own estrogens are. So if you're premenopausal and you've got normal levels and you have a cycle, you have a period every month, you have a certain surge of estrogens every month that bathe your brain basically. And in doing so, encourage the brain to make neurotransmitters like serotonin. So serotonin goes into these little vesicles. Imagine 'em like little bubbles full of serotonin, and then they get released when appropriate throughout the month. So when you don't have estrogen circulating, you just don't have as much serotonin in the vesicles. And tamoxifen is thought to be slightly estrogenic in the brain. Now, slightly, estrogen is by no means as estrogen as your normal estrogen is. So maybe you have less serotonin in the vesicles if you're premenopausal. Now, if you're postmenopausal, you're kind of already used to that state. Your estrogen isn't surging, you're not making the the many, many packets packed full of serotonin. So you're already kind of used to a lower serotonin state on a day-to-day basis. So the tamoxifen shouldn't have as much effect on postmenopausal women when it comes to neurotransmitters as it does premenopausal.

Leah 14:07

Interest.

Tina 14:07

It's that whole thing where we talk about tamoxifen being relative to what you started with. Right? So premenopausal, when you go on tamoxifen, you're gonna feel a dramatic shift downward in all estrogen activity. So you'll have more bone loss than you would normally have. You might have tougher time with memory in cognition issues because it's less estrogen than normal Postmenopausally. Tamoxifen actually is slightly estrogenic on bone compared to nothing, cuz postmenopausal, you have very, very low levels of estrogen. Tamoxifen comes along and it's actually slightly more estrogenic than having nearly no estrogen or having super low levels of circulating estrogen. So it's relative to what was going on in your body before the diagnosis and before Tamoxifen entered the picture.

Leah 14:46

Yeah, so when I got Myline injection, I think that's what resulted in osteopenia. But as I've been doing, taking Tamoxifen all these years, my dex is slightly improving and my, uh, oncologist attributes that to the tamoxifen being protective

Tina 15:01

Mm-hmm.

Leah 15:02

So,

Tina 15:03

Yeah. And not, and and just so we're clear, cuz I think this is very confusing because we're talking about premenopausal versus postmenopausal and then tamoxifen having a slightly estrogenic action in the bone, in the brain. Postmenopausal leak relative to no estrogen, but always on breast tissue, breast cancer, and normal breast tissue. Tamoxifen is considered anti-estrogen across the board all the time. So just so we're clear, it does have an anti-estrogen action when it comes to breast cells.

Leah 15:27

Right. Um, and that's also why you have to watch out for things like vaginal spotting and bleeding because it is also estrogenic to the uterus. Um, okay. So let's go back to the unmotivated. I mean, uh, do you think that that is, it is a level of depression mood that, like estrogen was PR protective of, or, or even the fatigue.

Tina 15:48

Yeah. Yeah. I think that physical fatigue and mental fatigue are very similar and I think that, you know, estrogen helps us focus and helps us think and he, it does elevate mood. So I can see how this is directly linked to changes in hormonal status. Sure.

Leah 16:01

And so I know what my answer would be to if a patient came to me with this question and it would be get moving exercise. And not because of the chubby, but because of, and I know it's hard to exercise if you're unmotivated, but find something that you love to do that involves movement.

Tina 16:18

think that's excellent advice. Some people are naturally disciplined and they can just, they'll get up and they'll do what they need to do, even if they don't feel like doing it. And I think finding something that you actually enjoy brings a level of commitment to those who have a hard time finding that discipline. And it also is, you know, let's face it, joy is like the anti-stress factor. So if you like to dance or you like to kayak, or you like to hike in the woods, whatever you like to do, institute that. And it's exercise, it's movement, it's anti-depression, anti-anxiety, helps you sleep. Yeah. Can't go wrong.

Leah 16:47

Yeah. And there are so many apps and there are even Instagram accounts where you could follow them. And then if there is an exercise that you like, you wanna try later, you could just save it. I mean, people know how to use Instagram, but it's just a reminder that, you know, you can use it as more than just something being social. Um, yeah. Or if you, you know, you see something, just do it right then and there if you can. If it's a, an easy to do exercise, just break out in the line while you're waiting at the bank and, you know, do some heel raises or whatever. Seriously.

Tina 17:17

picturing people doing squats out there. They're like waiting the bank doing squats,

Leah 17:20

Heck yeah. Why not get people moving? Um, yell out squat challenge and everyone starts squatting. So, yeah, I mean, I hope, I hope that that helps. But yeah, movement is really the number one thing that I've been recommending for patients across the board. And so yeah, hopefully there's something that the person asking the question, you know, enjoys doing. And I, I know like it's hard to get motivated to do it in the first place, but, um, I don't know. Put an alert in your

Tina 17:47

Or meet somebody sometimes it's easier to commit to somebody else than yourself, so find a.

Leah 17:52

Accountability. Yeah. Or, you know, maybe there's an opportunity to get a, a, a trainer at a gym, join a gym for a short period of time, get the trainer and then like, you know, complimentary trainer and then get rid of them. I don't know if, if, if you have ideas, let us know what motivates you to exercise. But no, I mean, I.

Tina 18:13

Yeah, it is tough and, and it's common. I mean, I know that the studies might say one thing, but I have commonly heard from patients weight gain is an issue and just sluggishness in general, including mental sluggishness.

Leah 18:25

I mean, it's the same thing where, you know, you will hear, we hear from our oncologists, like Tamoxifen doesn't cause joint pain. And all of us who have taken Tamoxifen at one point or other will be like, ah, I beg to differ. So, and I've seen papers that say it does so, yes. Um, this kind of segues into our next question about why

Why do some cancers get more attention?

Leah 18:43

isn't there more talk about post-menopausal breast cancer? And the person continues, it seems like triple negative and young people have so much more conversation than, hormone and HER two positive post-menopausal breast cancer. It would be great to hear from these ladies. I think she means us. And how, for example, an aromatase inhibitor affects their life. Oh, I see. Oh, from the postmenopausal ladies. Okay. Is it different than premenopausal ladies? Okay. So giving a voice to postmenopausal women with, um, E R P R and plus or minus HER two positive, breast cancer. I think in the social media world, it definitely is dominated by the younger people with breast cancer for sure, because it's, it's the platform.

Tina 19:25

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would assume that's the case. Cuz when it comes to social media, especially TikTok, Instagram, kind of, when you get away from Facebook, people under a certain age are more likely to be there.

Leah 19:36

Yeah, and I have seen older women post-menopausal women, you know, I seek them out to, you know, see what's going on in their world. But I can tell you that the majority of my patients are, they're not, they're not young, you know, I mean, I, I see patients who are in their sixties, seventies, and eighties, so,

Tina 19:55

I think if this person's question refers to just headlines in general about triple negative and HER two positivity. In the past year in particular, we've had some breakthrough treatments for those two subsets of people with breast cancer, so there are new treatments available. HER two positivity is something that needs to be revisited by everyone who thinks that their tumor was her two negative and now has a recurrence of cancer needs to. Assess their HER two status because there are now treatments for what is called her two low status and HER two low didn't exist before. So I think that's one headline that's been, you know, kind of coming through a lot because on the new drug out in the last year, and the other is triple negative because we have immunotherapies now. Some people with triple negative disease are having really good response to these immune therapies, and that's all newly approved in the last couple years as well. So I think as far as general headlines go, some of the breakthrough drugs for these two subsets of people with breast cancer might be one of the reasons that we are hearing so much about it in headlines lately.

Leah 21:00

And yeah, like I, you know, was started off by saying the, oh guys, I sound like such an old person. The younger generation is much more social media savvy. And if that's where you are getting a lot of your information, that's the voice you're gonna be hearing. Um, but yeah, those patients are out there. It's just they may not be as vocal.

Tina 21:18

Yeah, I think you're right. And the risk of breast cancer goes up with every decade of life, cuz aging itself is a risk factor for breast cancer. So there's certainly more people over the age of 50 with breast cancer today than there are under the age of 50.

Leah 21:30

And what I think is really interesting, and I pointed it out when I went to see my oncologist, um, down in Arizona, that like most of my patients are, are elderly. I mean, I've had patients in their nineties and when I worked at the other cancer center in Arizona, my patient population was much younger. So I think it's just kind of like where you are and you know, in terms of like if you are looking, it's funny because a lot of the young people on social media will comment about being in the infusion room and everybody's older than they are,

Tina 21:59

Mm-hmm. .Mm-hmm.

Leah 22:01

So I don't know, I don't know where I was going with that, but, um, really good question. Really good question. we have another breast cancer related question. somebody

Is Turmeric okay with aromatase inhibitors?

Leah 22:09

asked is 550 milligrams of turmeric daily contraindicated with an aromatase inhibitor? I dunno if we're gonna get into specific dosages, but let's just make it generic. Is turmeric contraindicated with an aromatase inhibitor?

Tina 22:22

Not in my book, you

Leah 22:23

I, I don't think so. I mean, turmeric as food. Like I'm all for like, I think, you know, the turmeric in your food. Um, the turmeric is like me thinking offhand, it's contraindicated with tamoxifen because of, as we've discussed, how tamoxifen is converted into its like active form. Um, but I don't think of it with the aromatase inhibitor, but you know, as we say, talk to your doctor.

Tina 22:47

this is not medical advice. We are not your doctors.

Leah 22:50

That's right. I've heard that before.

Tina 22:52

I think that's what you say. You say something like that all the

Leah 22:54

I think I do. So last question that we got from Instagram

Collagen okay with CLL?

Leah 22:59

is collagen powder. Is that okay with someone with C L L? I take it for my joint pain. So that is, you know, I don't, we don't talk a lot about heme cancers, but

Tina 23:10

CLL is chronic lymphocytic leukemia.

Leah 23:13

yeah, so, and it's a, so it's a hematological cancer and.

Tina 23:16

Can I say that? CLL is a really interesting. I'll tell you why. Because I, I'm intrigued by c l l. It's not like other leukemias where you churn out these, you know, cells faster. It's actually just that your white cells don't wanna die. They just don't go away. They don't get cleared out by your spleen. They just kind of accumulate and they get a higher and higher number. So it's different. It's not a highly proliferative disease. There is no crisis state. It's not like C M L where you can go into a crisis and it's very serious. C l is kind of like a train. It's slow, it's steady, and it's really hard to stop once it starts. Right? So, but it, it kind of keeps going and going. These white cells just don't know when to quit. So it's kind of an interesting entity in the grand scheme of leukemias anyways.

Leah 24:02

Yeah, so it's very slow. Yes. So collagen powder, we talked in our episode, one of our supplements, 1 0 1 episodes about collagen. How is it protective to healthy cells or is it protective to cancer cells? And so when it comes to cll, um, and what, when we talk about collagen, it's typically people taking a collagen powder. I'm gonna just kind of generalize. And those have higher dosages. Like a scoop is like, I don't know, 10 grams or whatever it is. You know, they're higher dosages than, than most people would take. So you did the whole, uh, separate podcast on collagen.

Tina 24:37

Yeah, they break apart the collagen into little tiny pieces. So collagen is a protein and in our bodies collagen is a most common protein cuz it's a structural proteins. That's what holds us together, gives. Integrity to all of our tissues. And anyways, when we do collagen from whatever animal, they do it from beef, they do it from pork, they do it from fish, they pull the collagen out, and then they break it up and they call it hydrolyzed. They'll end up with some smaller molecules that are only two or three amino acids. So these little dye peptides and tri peptides, which is just a fancy name for a two amino acids linked together, or three amino acids linked together. And they have biological actions. And that's the cautionary with collagen is what are the biological actions of these dye peptides and tri peptides. They haven't all been defined. We're still discovering new things that these dye peptides and tripeptides do because they, they're not just structural, they're not just integrated into a new protein. They actually stimulate other cells. So in the case of skin, the reason collagen is used for skincare, Is because these little dye peptides and trap peptides stimulate laying down a collagen in the skin, which is an anti-aging thing. So we will often see collagen or hydrolyzed collagen for skincare, and the same for joints, because it stimulates the production of collagen. It can be used for joint health as well. Um, with C L L, it's a hematological cancer, like you mentioned. It's, it's not a, it's not a tumor. I still would, out of an abundance of caution, be very careful about introducing anything new and watch those labs closely. So, for example, if someone has CLL and they generally, folks with CLL will be getting regular labs, whether it's every three months, every six months, something, if you're gonna introduce collagen or maybe you get a lot of relief from it, it would be the only thing to introduce. And then you watch your white blood cell count, you watch your lymphocyte count and you see did it affect it? And if you kind of bring it in and it goes up, take it out, see if it goes down, that kind of thing. I would be very, very careful. I would be, I'm super cautious though. I assume whenever something is unknown that it could be contraindicated until proven otherwise. So that's my kind of cautionary tale because I think that we take for granted that natural things will always be safe sometimes. And if they're having a biological action, there's nothing to say that the cancer can't derive some benefit that's yet to be defined. We don't know.

Leah 26:47

Right, because cancer is sneaky and it'll change how it acts, um, depending on the environment. Yeah. So, yeah, I think these are really good questions. do you wanna take another break and then we could just come back and, and do some more reminiscing? Hurry,

Tina 27:03

I can hardly wait.

Leah 27:06

I don't know. I don't, I had the lyrics up before anyways. Okay. We'll be back.

Tina 27:24

And we're back. All right, so that was our C Lll question. And what else do we wanna, what? Oh, I

Leah 27:30

I'm listening to you. No, I'm listening to you. I'm like, oh. Like that's my, like what's gonna happen next, Tina? Oh, I Oh my God.

Tina 27:42

That's funny. All right, so let's All right, we're back. Oh, okay. So let's talk about a few other things that came

Leah 27:55

So, yeah, so I guess for those who came in kind of in the middle of our, um, our episodes,

The very beginning...

Leah 28:03

you know, maybe you weren't here from day one, but we started off talking about hot flashes. We just figured, I ha I actually went back and I listened to the episodes. I was like, why the heck did we ever start doing this? And I had said something funny to you. Apparently you thought it was funny I didn't about eating ice cream and having hot flash. That's kind of what, like spurred the first episode, right? Um, or the first three, the first pod, the first three episodes.

Tina 28:28

Uh, yes, I remember it

Leah 28:30

There you go. Um, so I just

What's the best way to manage hot flashes?

Leah 28:33

have to say that, oh cuz the hot flashes are just so difficult to manage, you know, and like people want supplements and they do black co-host or they do like, um, magnesium, like oh, there are all these different things and there're different like algorithms in my mind as to why I'm gonna start with somebody with a certain supplement. But I have to say the number one thing that I find most effective to manage uh, hot flashes is regulating that blood sugar.

Tina 28:58

Hmm. All right,

Leah 28:59

Yeah, no, I have patients kind of putting that together too. You know, it's like I plant the seed and then maybe they alter their diet. They're not going to bed with their ice cream or their pie or whatever it may be. Um, they might be doing a little protein snack to keep that blood sugar from dipping in the middle of the night, whatever it may be. Increasing more fruits and vegetables and fiber, you know, healthy proteins to slow that whole blood sugar metabolism, keep it even keel. Yeah, it really, um, really plays a big part in that.

Tina 29:26

I think blood sugar is a huge issue because your cortisol goes up, right? So if your blood sugar dips in that scenario, if you have low blood glucose, at any point your cortisol has to go up. And right behind your cortisol is your sympathetic nervous system. People who are prone to hot flashes already have a slightly higher sympathetic tone compared to the parasympathetic, and when you have a hot flash, it goes, more extreme. Parasympathetics get depressed while sympathetics go into overdrive. So yeah, I could see how that would tip one over right over to a hot flash.

Leah 29:55

And that's also why stress can trigger hot flashes because of that as well.

Tina 29:59

So you wanna do things like deep breathing, relaxation, you know, kind of bring your sympathetic tone down, as best you can. I mean, there is a, a bit of hardwiring here. I think the tendency towards hot flashes as women go through menopause, you can ask your mother. That's your best guess is whether you're gonna have hot flashes or not. If your mother had hot flashes, you're more likely to have hot flashes. This is like all cancer aside, this is just general.

Leah 30:20

Interesting. So from hot flashes, we moved on. We moved on

Coffee? Soy? Alcohol? Good or Bad?

Leah 30:24

to the questions that we get all the time. Is this good for me? Is this bad for me? You know? Good for you. Bad for you.

Tina 30:30

episodes four, five, and six.

Leah 30:32

That's right. We talked about coffee, soy and alcohol. How could I forget

Tina 30:37

evil demonn.

Leah 30:38

the evil? Oh, and this is when we introduced our unofficial theme song cuz that was, um, that song by the Kinks. That was our first unofficial theme song.

Tina 30:47

That's right. The evil demonn.

Leah 30:48

yeah.

Tina 30:49

So let's just say it. Coffee seems okay and moderation. If anything, it protects you from a lot of different cancers, particularly primary liver cancer and endometrial cancer. Soy is fine in moderation. Just make sure it's not sprayed with a bunch of glyphosate, AKA Roundup.

Leah 31:02

And real soy food, it has to be real soy food. It can't be those powders and bars and all that

Tina 31:08

processed food is processed food, even if it has the word organic on it. Just processed food. Be mindful of not eating that very often or very much. And yeah, soy isolates, soy supplements. Maybe avoid those,

Leah 31:19

Right. For the good or for the bad. So

Tina 31:21

And alcohol, we have to say that this is the worst news of all of our 49 episodes. Alcohol's just not good for you. I mean, it's just not.

Leah 31:29

it's not, no. And you know, I just, I just saw an article that was talking about how we just don't talk enough about how alcohol is not good for you, in terms of cancer. So what did come out of was, I think it was this episode that kind of got me doing those recipes for, um, mocktails.

Tina 31:47

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I've, I've seen mocktails out at bars. Now there's a mocktail list next to the cocktail list.

Leah 31:52

Which is awesome, and I just actually just made some, um, cranberry shrub for, you know, some festive mocktails. Maybe I'll come up with a nice recipe and post that because it's a great way of adding flavor to things and, um, no, there are wonderful.

Tina 32:08

What is a shrub? What.

Leah 32:09

Oh, oh. So shrubs are, it's, it's not quite a ferment, but it's kind of, you add, um, sugar. I think you could also add, um, what's it called? Probably do monk fruit too, and, or you could probably find some other, like non sweetener sweetener to do. Um, you mix it with fruit. So I put, I used sugar, organic, vegan sugar and, cranberries. And you kinda let them macerate and then you strain it out. You squeeze out the berries and the liquid is something that you just add to sparkling water. You could use it with some of those, non-alcoholic, like liquor substitutes. I have a think a recipe online for like a, fake cosmopolitan, and then like a, like a mock, um, old fashioned.

Tina 32:51

So you don't ferment it,

Leah 32:52

It's not really fermented, like it sits in your fridge,

Tina 32:55

it doesn't have the flavor of vinegar or alcohol or anything like that.

Leah 32:58

Oh, but it does, no, it does. I'm sorry, I left out. The big part of it is you add apple cider vinegar to it.

Tina 33:03

Oh, oh.

Leah 33:05

Yeah, so you do have a little bit of a tang and so, and you don't use that much of

Tina 33:09

Another question is that apple cider vinegar have to have the mother in the bottle.

Leah 33:13

I don't think that really matters.

Tina 33:15

I'm wondering if you're creating a little bit of of further fermentation with the sugar.

Leah 33:19

If it, if you are, it's very slow because it's gonna be in the fridge. You're not leaving it out. Mm-hmm. No, you refrigerate it. Yeah. If you left it out, you're for sure creating some sort of Hooch.

Tina 33:30

know, that was my first fermentation experiment, right? Well, I grew up in upstate New York. My first experiment I heard you could make alcohol from apple cider. So I was like six years old. So I thought taking the apple cider outta the refrigerator and throwing it under my bed was a good idea. So I did that and it made vinegar. So that was my first lesson. I was like, huh, that didn't make alcohol. I made, and why I wanna make alcohol at six years old was probably cuz I was making right probably because I was running the bar making the grass hoppers in the, in the Alexander Brandy already, you know, at Christmas time and stuff.

Leah 34:00

Brandy Alexander.

Tina 34:01

Brandy Ex Alexander. See, that's how much I know about bars.

Leah 34:05

Well you are making them. I don't, I don't think I've made one since I went to bartending school.

Tina 34:10

sure somebody just dropped that little bit of knowledge down and I just like glommed onto it, said, I can do what? You know, I can make something from something. Let me try that

Leah 34:17

Well, it is very confusing cuz apple cider, you know, like cider can be like hard cider. and it could be festive autumn cider. So, so yeah. So alcohol.

Tina 34:27

Okay. So I wanna, I wanna put a caveat to all of this. When we say processed food is really bad for you, it doesn't mean we never, ever touch the stuff I've had an Impossible Burger or Beyond Burger or something like that with the full knowledge that that thing is processed to all get out. It's not real food in my book, but doesn't mean I'm never gonna have it right. Or an alcoholic drink. Certainly have my share of beer cuz that's my thing. Um, so yeah, I just wanna say that out there cause I, it sometimes we might sound like we're being absolutists and even though something is bad for you, it means that you're an adult and you get to choose your, you know, the risk benefit is yours to, for the choosing.

Leah 35:02

Yeah, and I mean, I'm the same. Anyone who knows me knows my weakness is a bag of potato

Tina 35:08

Mm. I'll take that over at Sweet Treat any day.

Leah 35:12

And I like my sweet treats, but, um, but I, I avoid them because of hot flashes. It all comes full circle, you know, we're connected. Um, and alcohol, I, I save it for a special occasions. There are people getting together like a work thing at a place where they have margaritas. Not really good food, in

Tina 35:32

I can't believe you just slammed your nearby restaurant.

Leah 35:35

That's not like one of my favorite places to go. Um, and then like they have like super sweet margaritas. Like if I'm gonna like use my alcohol card for the, the week or the month, I'm gonna like save it for a special occasion. That's kind of what I was saying. I had a drink on Saturday in honor of my mother. I went and had lunch at a department store in the big

Tina 35:54

in honor of your mother.

Leah 35:55

in honor of my mother, cuz that was her thing. And I had myself a little cocktail in the middle of the day. Yeah. You know, but that, that was my thing. And then last night I made tacos with a friend and we split an na beer and there are some good na beers out there.

Tina 36:08

NA's non-alcoholic for the uninitiated.

Leah 36:11

who've never even thought there could be a non-alcoholic beer. But there are a lot of good ones out there and some craft ones. So yeah, and we need to do more Good for you, bad for you things because I still get questions all the time about other stuff. So, we'll, we'll come back to those

Side Eff*^ks

Leah 36:24

episodes. Um, and then we delved into the side effects. The side effects.

Tina 36:30

Mm-hmm.

Leah 36:31

And that was the introduction of our duck

Tina 36:33

Mm-hmm. That's right. Okay. So we introduced the duck quack whenever there's profanity use so that we can keep our clean rating on Apple and other directories.

Leah 36:46

That's right. Cuz the cancer pod is rated g so we don't get banned in certain countries because I am a potty mouth by nature. So, um, I think the side effects episodes, um, I think they're pretty popular.

Tina 37:00

were some of our most popular, actually. Is that the one where we did chemo brain?

Leah 37:04

No, that would survivor. Survivorship. Survivorship. Yes. That was chemo brain. But they're kind of intertwined. I mean, you know, I mean side effects, survivorship effects, like it's all intertwined. Yeah. Chemo brain was our most listened to, according to your statistics.

Tina 37:20

to statistics, most listened to and most downloaded. And I think that there are a lot of Similarities between chemo brain and post covid brain. And I think that has also led to more popularity because I think that's current. It's a current event, is this long haul covid brain fog that's happening for folks. So anyways, if you haven't listened to it, you should go back. I think the chemo brain episode is very useful for folks to hear.

Leah 37:43

Or if you're like me and have chemo brain, go back and listen to it cuz you might not remember what we

Tina 37:48

There's that. Maybe that's why it's the most popular. Maybe it's been listened to more than once by the same folks. That's, I didn't even think of that.

Leah 37:53

Yeah. And I'm, I, I, I I'm, I'm joking that I'm not because I should go back and listen to it, but, um, I should go back and listen to it. I was having fun going back and listening. At first I thought I was gonna be like, it would be cringey, but it was actually kind of fun. Yeah. I mean, and side the side effects. I mean that's, you know, that's the whole goal of what we do is to try to reduce them and try to prevent them before they happen. So hopefully we had some good information in those episodes, um, to help people as they are going through their treatments.

Tina 38:24

Yeah. You know, as we're reminiscing, let's talk about that. So

What's our goal again?

Tina 38:27

our big reason for doing a podcast was to have a platform that reached more people than we possibly could otherwise, and just give them straight advice from, I don't know how many decades of experience in cancer care we add up to. Um, you ever seen these folks on online? They're like 100 years of experience. And you look at, there's like 10 people.

Leah 38:45

Combined.

Tina 38:46

Yes, we've had over 30 years experience combined, whatever. Um,

Leah 38:50

It's so cheesy.

Tina 38:51

I think that's it. I think it's because it's kind of who cares? Um, the reason we put the podcast together was to give away the information and get it out there to folks who can't find it anywhere. And what we do, we have heard over the years, why don't more people do this? Why don't more people integrate natural medicine to their conventional cancer care? Why don't we have answers to these questions? Why doesn't someone just talk to me directly? And there's a lot of reasons in our conventional model of cancer care that doesn't happen. I will say it's changing for the better all the time. So I just wanna say that cuz I think our roots, I think it's important to realize like we're doing this in an, in the purest sense. Just to get out there and get the word out and help people with direct conversation, with tips and tricks and knowledge. Cuz knowledge is.

Leah 39:33

But it's not medical.

Tina 39:35

So don't confuse it with medical advice, even though I say things as if I know, like I say things in a definitive way cuz I'm used to giving medical advice all the time, right? So this is what I do as a clinician. So sometimes it might even sound like I'm giving medical advice, but don't believe my tone. Believe Leia

Leah 39:53

Great, and that leads us to our next pod, which was talk

How to Talk to Your Doctor

Leah 40:00

to Your Doctor. Episodes 11 through 13 where basically talk to your doctor if you're interested in integrative oncology. See if there are resources out there, like we covered, I dunno, three episodes worth of things that people can chat at their doctors.

Tina 40:15

And how to do it because I think one of the things that people are trying to do is have a conversation with their doctor so that their doctor hears them. And so finding common ground, um, and, and kind of going side saddle that way, into a conversation where you can have the medical oncologist, radiation oncologist, surgical oncologist, doesn't matter. whoever your healthcare professional is, finding a way to find common ground. So maybe starting with those things that we call the pillars or the foundations of health. Talk to 'em about exercise. What do they think? And then you're gonna ha find these things that you both agree on. Don't start with diet cuz you may not agree. I think a lot of the advice out there is still crap when it comes to diet. Um, see someone who knows what they're talking about. It's not just about calories because people still get advice to say, go just, you know, whatever it takes. Get, get those calories down

Leah 41:00

Eat whatever you want, eat whatever you. That doesn't mean you get to go through a drive-through every single day and, you know, eat fast food because they're calories. If they're empty calories, they're not doing you much good. They might be doing you more damage actually. So maybe start with exercise and sleep and other things and, and work your way into conversations. And they probably won't know about supplements cuz that's not what they do. Right. And so it's, it's okay if your oncologist doesn't know about supplements, they, they shouldn't really, I don't know where they would find the time to learn in depth information on supplements unless they were dedicated to the cause and already practicing integrative, there are a few out there that are doing that. And I wanna add about, you know, your comment about diet, because I, I do, because I'm got my finger, I got my finger on the pulse of social media here. And so I do see people posting things about like, you know, being chastised for eating, you know, junk food or whatever while they're going through treatment. And again, as we said, it's not like we're opposed to people having it every once in a while. But if somebody is complaining about fatigue and all they're eating is processed empty calories, Gotta get some real food in there, you know, and that's when you work with someone, it's like, okay, well I have taste changes. My mouth is like on fire, I'm nauseated and all I can get down is, you know, insert name of whatever the food is. Um, that's when you find someone, find a resource to work with somebody who can help you. not only manage those side effects, but also find options,

Tina 42:23

Well, and you know, you know how this saying is, there's an app for that, for everything, you know? Oh, there's an app for that. Well, hopefully over time we accumulate enough episodes when it comes to survivorship survivorship and side effects and such that hopefully people use us as a resource as well, because we have episodes on mouth sores and on GI side effects, and on constipation and on all sorts of, things that go. nausea vomiting. We have so many episodes. The idea here is to create a back library of information that is useful, not just now while we're doing it. We're definitely not, you know, driven by the headline news of the day. We're about how do you help people through this, whether they're, it's happening today, next week, or next year. So I wanna say that I hope we become one of those resources people can use as they find someone nearby.

Chemo Brain, Bone Health and....

Leah 43:11

so that brings us to our next pod, which is the survivorship, survivor shit pod. And we covered chemo, brain, bone health, and oh my God, what was his last one? I just, we just, I just looked it up. Oh. Bone health, chemo brain and fatigue. That's what we covered.

Tina 43:30

Ah. All right.

Leah 43:31

You know, those lingering side effects.

Tina 43:33

Yeah,

Leah 43:34

And these are pretty interchangeable with the side effects, um, episodes as I mentioned, because fatigue starts happening while you're in treatment. You know, these aren't like exclusively to this is what happens afterwards. I mean, these are things that commonly persist. There are a lot of other subjects that we can, um, delve into in the future, like about, intimacy and sexual issues that, that happen both during treatment as well as, you know, beyond. So, yeah.

Tina 43:57

Sorry, I got distracted

Leah 43:59

What are

Tina 43:59

I wasn't. It's our podcast. I was bringing up the old episodes

Leah 44:02

so well, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go,

What happened to "The Moment of Woo?"

Leah 44:05

go off, I'm gonna go off script cuz you know we're scripted here. Um, what happened to the moment of Woo.

Tina 44:11

What did happen to the moment of Woo

Leah 44:13

I don't know. We gotta bring back the moment, the moment of Woo in 2023. I'm writing this down because that was such a fun thing to do, where for several episodes at least, we would kind of delve into maybe a commonly believed myth or you know, just something that was out there. And we'd look to see if there was science behind it and like, you know, what is this like alleged? Woo? Is it legit?

Tina 44:38

just cuz it's Woo doesn't mean it's not true.

Leah 44:40

Just cuz it's woo doesn't mean it's not true. I'm a poet. Um, yeah. Okay, so moment of woo. We're bringing that back.

Tina 44:50

all right. Well, I think the moment of Woo um, we didn't, we never formally stopped it. It just kind of faded.

Leah 44:56

it did fade. It faded. Mm-hmm. No, but it's coming back. I know. Y'all are just like, you know, wanting it to come back. So we're gonna bring it back. The next pod, well, the next few pods, whatever. Like we did a couple of pods on, um, at the movies, and these actually were some of my favorite to do. They weren't really that popular. But I think they're really fun because I am this, like, like I was watching like a holiday film cuz I love holiday films cuz they're so cheesy. And I'm like talking to the TV and like, you know, critiquing it and stuff. I love doing stuff like that. I love watching movies and then talking to someone about the movie. So I thought it, I thought that these were really fun episodes. Um, but apparently listeners weren't really all that into it.

Tina 45:39

They weren't into it, and it could just be a branding issue where people expected one thing got another and they were just like, ah, I don't really wanna hear this. I wanna hear information that's gonna be useful in my day-to-day living

Leah 45:50

It could be. I mean, or it could be like, I don't know, maybe I gave away too much information. I don't know. I just, it would've been more fun if we could have done it, like live, you know, like, like real time. Kind of like, as you and I not like live for people have to sit through like two and a half hours of a movie with us, but, you know, just you and I watching it and commenting. I think that would've probably been more appealing. So we should figure out if we could do something like,

Tina 46:12

okay.

Leah 46:13

Because I watch, okay, so I watch, um, Trixie Mattel and Katya are these drag queens and they do that. They watch movies and they talk about them as the movies are playing and stuff. And it's so much fun. But they do it all in like 20 minutes. So we just have to figure out the technology. I think it's a YouTube thing. I think we can do it.

Tina 46:31

Yeah. I don't think it's difficult.

Leah 46:32

No.

Tina 46:33

The question is whether people wanna listen to it.

Leah 46:34

Well, I think if we were ta commenting in real time I think. I think because you hate when people, you hate when people talk during movies. But if we could pause it and comment in it or we pick out certain part, I Well

Tina 46:45

I I, I, I'm gonna have to pre watch it by myself, I'll tell you, because there's no way I'm gonna watch a movie at the first time and have, and pause it and comment. That's not how I process. I need the whole thing, and then I can go back.

Leah 46:57

so those might be the last at the movies or we might figure out how to work it, but I really enjoyed them, so I'm gonna keep watching movies and commenting during the movies. Okay. And from there we moved on to the truth about, this is another myth busters thing, right?

Tina 47:16

I gotta tell you what is it The, remember the Inconvenient Truth was that movie that came out, El Gore did. That is such an interesting term. Inconvenient truths, cuz I feel like it makes me included. It makes everyone uncomfortable to hear truths that are really not fun to hear. So the truth about antioxidants or the truth about whatever we're talking about, it's almost like this is a hard little path to walk because it'd be a lot easier if we oversimplified things and just told people what they wanna hear because that's kind of fun. Oh, shoot. a sec. Anyways, so I think here on our podcast, we do not cater to a certain message or trying to be popular or trying to do anything. Sometimes the truths that we do say are fairly inconvenient. You know, it's not fun to say alcohol's not good for you. I don't like it. You don't like it. It's just what the data brings out when you go through it. So I'm saying that because we may sometimes rub people the wrong way because we're not just rolling over with a party line of some kind. the truth about was all about that kind of thing. Like how about antioxidants? You know, what, what about these tough subjects? What do we do about

Leah 48:33

Right. What about keto? You know, there's people out there who are just like keto for everyone, you know, but what, you know, what does the science show? So that was that. and you know, we also had repeated more of those supplement, 1 0 1 episodes, which I think are really, really popular. Um, and I'm only bringing it up because I've had several people ask, can we do one on Mela? So I think that's gonna be in the new year. We're gonna definitely do one about melatonin

Tina 48:59

did glutamine, curcumin, or turmeric. Folate.

Leah 49:02

Oh, we did the basics too. We talked about like our, the first one we did, the first supplements 1 0 1 was about the basics. and that was, um, why do people take supplements in the first place? You know, why would we, why would we recommend them in the first

Tina 49:14

Right, and how we think about them and when you should institute them and when you should stay away from them. So I, I feel like the supplement 1 0 1, the basics is actually really helpful for people to use a concept and a framework so that they can then go on to make these decisions for themselves. So again, it's another one of those, you know, teach 'em how to fish episodes where we're not handing you exactly what you should do. And we don't pretend to have the solution for everybody, but we will tell you how to get there.

Leah 49:39

Yeah, so we continued that with other supplements that are escaping me at the moment. But yes, melatonin for all of you out there who've been asking that is definitely on our list for the new year. And I think this just came to me. I don't know why we didn't do this. Um, we should do a truth about sugar,

Tina 49:55

Oh yeah. Okay.

Leah 49:56

don't you think? I mean, it's like the number one question that people ask.

Tina 49:59

Mm-hmm. ,does sugar feed cancer?

Leah 50:01

Yeah. So I think that's gonna be on our list. 2023. You heard it here first, folks.

Tina 50:07

Promises. Promises. All right. This

Leah 50:10

That's a song too.

Tina 50:12

this one. That reminds me that that should also be more in-depth conversation about what cancer cells use for fuel so that I have visuals with that for F for folks. But I think that's another one that's like, okay, this is something everyone should know so that they understand it completely. Because it's not like you can never eat anything sweet again in your life and enjoy, enjoy sweet treats. There is somewhere between never and all ways. That makes a lot of sense, Hmm.

Leah 50:42

All right.

Who's been interviewed?

Leah 50:43

So we have been as having a lot of people ask us if they could be on our podcast, um, from the very beginning. And we kind of put that off. We put that off. We're just like, we need to get our act together before we bring anyone else into this happy family. Um, and then we did it. We did it. We had Dr. Amy Rothen.

Tina 51:02

,naturopathic physician.

Leah 51:04

Sammy Peterson, who is a registered dietician, who is certified in oncology, um, and Dr. Mary Barnhart, who is a breast surgeon, surgical oncologist. Retired. Yes. Retired. Um, and those were kind of fun. I had never really, really, I'd never interviewed anyone before other than like for my school yearbook back in the day when I was in high school,

Tina 51:27

Mm.

Leah 51:28

So it was, you know, it was a little intimidating for me, but it, it's fun.

Tina 51:32

So those are some of my favorite ones to do. I love interviewing folks because I, I like picking their brains and I know, like Dr. Rothenberg, She came out with a new book for survivorship and just kind of going through and, and getting people's expertise and it's so nice to hear other perspectives and especially when people like Sammy so specialized in nutrition for oncology and it's nice to pick their brains. Right. And, and Dr. Barnhardt is same thing, just talking to someone who will give you an honest answer to the questions about what goes on in the or. Exactly. You know, we ask her some fun questions about what's happening inside that room. Um, I enjoy it. I feel like it's such a nice learning experience for us at the same time as our.

Leah 52:16

And we've, we chose those three guests because it was part of who's in your pod. And so we wanted people who were part of an integrative care team and we're going to continue with interviews in the new year. Um, I'd like to interview more for like the next category, which was the hashtag Cancer Insider. I'd like to interview more cancer. Just to kind of get another perspective, I think we are, we're really like breast cancer heavy in this podcast and I'd like to bring in people with experience with other cancers so that we can hear more about things that might not be as celebrated with a month full of pink stuff or whatever. Um, for the first part of those Cancer Insider, we talked about me cuz we were having a lot of scheduling issues, And it was like, wait, I'm here, let's just talk about me and my story. And so I shared my story and I had some other stuff happening at the same time, um, which made for good drama. Bum bum, bum.

Tina 53:16

I mean, and in, in a, in a kind of amazing, we didn't plan that kind of way. We were gonna do your story, and then we had all the, you had all the things happening in real time that had to do with being worked up for something suspicious. So that was just a, a strange coincidence.

Leah 53:33

as bug bunny says, Aquin ink. Yeah. So, um, but then we had our podcast sisters on Amy and Steph from Cancer for Breakfast, which I feel like I'm like, part of, I think everyone who listens to their show regularly feels like they're a part of their show, their podcast, because it involves a lot of talking back to, to the like, you know, it's a one-sided conversation, but it's like, oh, heck yeah, I felt that too. Or, you know, commenting like, I, seriously, I get so into that podcast. Um, so that was a delight. I always, I get so excited when I see messages from them on Instagram, I feel like we're part of the cool kids now because as we pointed out in that episode, like they welcomed us, like Steph, like, like found us and welcomed us to the podcast world and it was really awesome because I don't know, I felt seen,

Tina 54:25

Yeah. That was a fun episode. I think that was one of our most popular in a single week. It had the most downloads in one week of any episode that we've ever done.

Leah 54:32

oh, in that case, ladies,

Tina 54:33

go.

Leah 54:34

You're welcome back anytime. Cause it's all about the ratings here,

Conventional vs. Alternative Treatments

Leah 54:42

Ah, okay. So rounding it out is our last pod that we talked about. it was kind of a way of me getting a movie in there because I didn't wanna like, do a lot of work

Tina 54:53

Truth comes out.

Leah 54:55

Cause the movies are, they're already made. Someone did the work already. But this movie really brought up a lot of good questions. And so it was more about the questions that the the movie brought up than the movie itself. But a lot of it was about the movie because there was, it was just so many layers to it. And that's the cancer conflict and it brings up a lot of different things. Right? It brings up, um, alternative cancer treatments, which we have talked about in several episodes about the difference between integrative and alternative cancer care. Um, it brings, uh, people being influenced by, I guess cancer influencers. You know, somebody goes through treatment and they become experts as we all are in our own cancer experiences, but, you know, and then they start trying to sell it on other people. Um, and so we talked about the concerns with that, and then also truly understanding what your, the goal of your, your treatment is.

Tina 55:46

I always say the most harm is done in that particular way where people don't realize that the mechanism of their particular treatment is one thing and they're doing something else that undoes that somehow. So it doesn't matter if they're taking something that blocks folate and they're doing mega doses of folate on the other side, that's a bad idea. You can undo whatever that drug is doing to block fully, or they're oxidizing the tumor and they're taking a bunch of antioxidants that would undo some of the oxidation. And when I say bunch, I'm take, I'm talking about Whole foods usually, like taking out the Vitam mixer, putting kale and berries in there and drinking that while you're going through radiation. That's a bad idea. I'm not talking about regular food and consumption. I'm talking about jacking up your. on purpose and the mechanisms behind that. And that's probably the biggest thing people do wrong. I think, because remember when I, I always say this, whenever you're looking at stats for any treatment that's conventional, I think of those stats as our worst case scenario. Our job is to make it better. So if you have a 50% response rate, how do I make sure I don't reduce it below 50? That's our worst case scenario, but we get it to 60 or 70, like that's my thought process. So in order to get there, you have to understand the mechanism of whatever the treatment already is in order to knock it in its way first, and then perhaps find ways of making it more effective.

Leah 57:02

So we're gonna get a lot of questions because about what you said about putting things in the Vitamix. I mean there are a lot of people who do that, who will either juice or, or Vitamix. And in general, when people tell me that they're juicing, I restrict them to like four to six ounces, not like some 32 ounce giant cup. Um, for a number of reasons, cuz I want them to do more than just juicing. But um, yeah, I think that's gonna be really controversial what you just.

Tina 57:29

Yeah, and I think, I think that we have two opposing goals when people go through radiation treatment in particular. One, you wanna feel well, but two, you want the radiation to work and not necessarily in that order. One, you want the radiation to work. Two, you wanna feel well, but you don't want to feel well at the cost of losing some of the effectiveness of the radiation. Radiation in particular, because there's only one way that a kill cells, unlike chemo, there's various mechanisms for various drugs when it comes to radiation. You could feel great you did six weeks of radiation, or five weeks, or seven weeks, whatever your course is, and to sail through it without any fatigue is not necessarily success to me. Yeah, you could juice your way, maybe you feel better, but at what cost?

Leah 58:08

So you believe that food can achieve a certain level of antioxidants that, um, like cuz I think of supplements, right? You know, unless like super high dose of supplements, but you think that it's possible to achieve that through food as well.

Tina 58:21

yes I think when you concentrate them and you're taking them in a, a level that you're not gonna ingest otherwise. Yes. In other words, you're not gonna sit down and have four carrots and apple, a couple blueberries and a half ahead of kale. You know what I mean? You're gonna put that in the juice or you can drink that down no problem. So you're getting supra physiological dosing. I think you start to, yeah, I think you start to experiment with yourself at that point. And I, you know, people wanna experiment. I'm, I'm saying the most logical thing to do is stay out of the way, particularly if it's a curative treatment, and only do things that are unlikely, theoretically, or proven not to get in the way.

Leah 58:57

But if people put blueberries in their yogurt,

Tina 58:59

Food quantities isn't gonna get in the way.

Leah 59:01

it's just like, because it's usually more than four carrots. It's usually people, you know, like when you see people like blending carrots, it's like, that's

Tina 59:08

Oh yeah. Like an a juicer. No, I think it's, I think you have to be very, very careful. I mean, if you wanna do that, I dunno, you're getting ca like radiation five days a week and you wanna do that every Friday night to be safe. You, you know, maybe do that if they're, these are compromises I come up with, with some of my patients. Like, okay, if you're convinced that that's really necessary, what if you adjusted it once after treatment on a Friday or Saturday morning when you get up and then just call it good.

Leah 59:29

And limit the size of it.

Tina 59:30

Yeah. And so other people will be like, hold that about the Gersen diet with these cases of Gersen. You know, Gersen diet is juicing every two hours. It's an incredibly intense juicing regime, but there's other qualities to that diet. And there is a point with all polyphenols where it's no longer an antioxidant and it oxidizes. Does that mean you have to juice, you know, 30 pounds of carrots, every few days? Maybe. I mean, that's a whole nother kind of flip the coin over your juicing and juicing and juicing. it's pretty much all you're doing all day.

Leah 59:59

And I thought part of the Gerson diet was to not be going through conventional treatment at the same time.

Tina 1:00:03

You're right. Yeah. Gersen is a standalone and it's, um, unfortunately, nearly impossible to follow cuz juicing every two hours is not exactly a way to live.

Leah 1:00:13

and um, I think when people, yeah, when people always reference the gin diet, they're like, oh, and I'm juicing, but then they talk about other things that they're eating. So I've, I've never met anyone who's actually done the actual gin diet. Um, I have colleagues like yourself and I've other colleagues who have met people who have done it. But um, yeah, because of the fact that to do a true gin diet, you can't come to a cancer center and get your conventional treatment. So that's probably why I haven't seen anyone do

Tina 1:00:39

Right, but you haven't seen anyone post cuz even when I was at CT C T C A back when I was a resident, we had someone, I remember, a patient very well. She went, um, she did the Gersen diet for, I think it was 18 or 19 months, exclusively. And then she came to C T C A after having done that because it didn't control it. So she was looking for, to integrate at that point, some integrative therapies?

Leah 1:00:58

So did she, um, she went to the clinics, like one of the clinics where they.

Tina 1:01:02

I think so. Yeah. I don't remember. It's too long ago now.

Leah 1:01:05

Well, you know what? We need to talk about the truth about the Gren diet then maybe because we just spent quite a bit of time talking about that

Winding down

Leah 1:01:14

I'm just saying, let's just make the, these are, these are ideas. I'm just writing 'em down. Look, I have my notebook. This was like part of my new year, new Year's resolution too. So Gersen diet.

Tina 1:01:22

in true Leah style, your New Year's resolution is being instituted on December 19th before New Year.

Leah 1:01:28

yeah, and I always, as New Year's approach, I always say I don't have one. So this is the first time I'm making one in

Tina 1:01:35

But I'm saying you're on it, you're on top of it. You're already doing

Leah 1:01:38

top of it. And

Tina 1:01:39

because it's the 19th of December. You don't need to do this until until January 1st. You realize that,

Leah 1:01:44

I know, but when are we gonna release this? We gotta edit it. And you know, we had a lot of editing to do. We talked about a lot of stuff in this episode.

Tina 1:01:51

I wanna share more numbers cuz I can. Our podcast was the one among the most top 25% shared on Spotify.

Leah 1:01:59

That's awesome. And because you just said that, I'm gonna encourage people to please share our episodes because that's how we grow and that's how more people get this information. So I gotta practice for when we're on YouTube, if you like this, hit the bell or push that button up there, whatever it is. Um, yeah, she, um, rate, leave a review,

Tina 1:02:21

We've been played 12,300 times on Apple. That's pretty good. Some people listen twice. That's good. We'll take it.

Leah 1:02:30

Oh

Tina 1:02:31

All right, I'll, I'll, I'll stop with my numbers now.

Leah 1:02:33

no, it's good. Um, no, it's been, it's been awesome. This has been, this has been fun. This is, I mean, it's sometimes it's, it's a lot of hard work and stress for me. And, um, but yeah, this was, this was started to, you know, like you said, get the news out there, get the information out there and, and help people, you know, help people help themselves.

Tina 1:02:54

Uh, what, what's our saying? If it's teach 'em how to fish, you know, what is our Teach 'em how to, I dunno, No, come on. We've just gotta be a more fitting, I dunno. We'll

Leah 1:03:05

um, oh, you know what, uh, buy me a coffee if you, if you wanna buy us a coffee.

Tina 1:03:12

Yes, if you like our show and you like what we're doing and you think we're of any value to you, please feel free to buy us a coffee And if we take some of these numbers we see in our analytics and know, a few people buy us a cup of coffee, we could actually get some more. Interview's done perhaps and get a, an assistant to help us set the stuff up, cuz it's the two of us in our shoestring budget. Um, I guess if two people count as a skeleton crew, that's what we are.

Leah 1:03:39

but we do appreciate all of our listeners. Um, I love getting the messages. I know I can't really answer things to the fullest extent of how I think people want answers to be answered but I mean, I try, I try to give, you know, as much information as I can without, you know, being your doctor because I'm not your doctor. But I love it. I love, I love all of the, the feedback that we get through email as well as through social media. It's, um, this has been really fun and I look forward to the next 50. So, on that note, I'm Dr. Leia Sherman,

Tina 1:04:09

and I'm Dr. Tina Kaser,

Leah 1:04:11

and this is the Cancer Pod.

Tina 1:04:12

until next time.

1:04:13

Thanks for listening to the cancer pod. Remember to subscribe, review and rate us wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on social media for updates, and as always, this is not medical advice. These are our opinions. Talk to your doctor before changing anything related to your treatment plan. The cancer pod is hosted by me, Dr. Lea Sherman. And by Dr. Tina Caer music is by Kevin McLeod. See you next time.