Mushrooms: Supplements 101

Tina 0:00

Welcome to episode 39 of the cancer pod. In this episode, we're talking about medicinal mushrooms. What are they? When are they used in integrative oncology? Are they safe? Stick around for answers to these questions and more. I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the science-y one

Leah 0:19

and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside

Tina 0:22

And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care

Leah 0:26

But we're not your doctors

Tina 0:29

This is for education entertainment and informational purposes only

Leah 0:33

do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor

Tina 0:37

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own

Leah 0:43

Welcome to the cancer pod

1:01

Hello,

Introduction

1:02

Tina. Hi, Leah. We're talking mushrooms today. Yes, both. in the kitchen and medicinal, right? I mean a little bit in the kitchen. Well, they're kind of interchangeable. I mean, most of the medicinal mushrooms are available to eat. They might be a hard to find. But yeah, mushrooms, technically a fungus, but we won't dwell on that because people don't like to think about eating fungus. I don't know. I mean, I think people are aware that mushrooms are fungi. Um, but anyway, yeah. I mean, like, cuz they grow on dead things. I think it's pretty cool. Like, you know, I get wood chips and put them down in my garden. Mm-hmm and then. On occasion sent you photos being like, what's this, my dog just ate it. And you're like, that's fine. Yeah. I, I am a very novice mushroom hunter for sure. Cause I live in the Pacific Northwest. And so, you know, you go for hikes, you see mushrooms, you get curious and slime, molds and such. They grow on everything. Yeah. I mean, mushrooms are everywhere in the Pacific Northwest. Yes they are. What I think is really interesting about mushrooms is if you're gonna be a mushroom hunter you really need to know your mushrooms because it could just be the difference of the, the gills versus no gills or something. And they can make you really sick or kill you. This is true. Yes. It's not something you wanna dabble in, you know, and, uh, get yourself in trouble every year. We have people who mistake, A poisonous mushroom and think it's edible. So every year we have incidences, so there are definitely certain ones you need to avoid. You know, the most important thing, if you're a novice, especially is if it has gills underneath, don't eat it. most of the edible ones don't have gills underneath anyways. And so you have to be a little more experienced and maybe even do a spore print to prove that you have the right mushroom. If it has gills underneath, but a lot of the edibles here just have no gills under them. So as soon as it has gills, you can just leave it alone. That will help. Well, I think what would help the most is to buy them from somebody who is a professional mushroom. Seller. And, um, I think also, you know, if what we're talking about, we're also including supplements. And so hopefully there's nothing toxic combined with the supplements, but yeah, we're not talking mushroom hunting, unfortunately that would probably be a different podcast. That you would be on, but not me. Well, and I, I will tell you one story where I got myself in a little bit of trouble and I did buy it at the Saturday market. It was a lobster mushroom, which is really kind of a parasitic mushroom that grows on another mushroom and whatever grew on was something that it didn't completely consume. And I ended up eating a little bit of some other kind of mushroom that definitely had an effect on me that wasn't pleasant. It, I, my heart was racing. Palpitations. So yeah, this is, there is some danger in foraging or even, you know, buying it from amateur foragers or at the Saturday market. There is some risk to that, cuz there's lookalikes for chanterelles even so. All that all that's caveats. Cause we're really gonna talk about the supplement today and buying it in a concentrated form. That's clean, right? This is supplements 1 0 1. right. Not mushroom foraging 1 0 1. No, no. Right. So, um, let's take a quick break and then come back and we're gonna talk about mushrooms. Alrighty, we are back and we're talking everything mushroom, um, in this episode. So mushrooms have been used for thousands of years. Medicinally mm-hmm I guess they're mostly thought of being used in traditional Chinese medicine. Yeah. That's where I first learned about them for sure. Is in Eastern medicines, like Chinese medicine, which we learned in school once upon a time. Yeah. I know they're specifically applied within Chinese medicine and I'm kind of a hack at that. I have general thoughts, you know, certain mushrooms for certain systems or the five element theory, but I'm not even gonna go there cuz I'm such a hack one day. Maybe we'll talk to someone who does Chinese medicine specifically, and we can get really in more detail, but just knowing. They are applied usually

Immune modulation, different than stimulation

5:08

in an immune modulatory sense. Not. immune stimulation, immune modulatory. So define immune modulation, cuz I think that's kind of a concept like people think of, oh, this thing is immune stimulating. Um, and then we also know of the term like immune suppressive. So what is this concept of immune modulation? It is. Exactly what it sounds like, which is it neither stimulates nor inhibits. It will modulate the immune system in the direction that it's supposed to go. So for example, you take

Mushrooms for autoimmune conditions?

5:41

something like an autoimmune disease, basically your own tissue. Is a target of your immune system. So you have an autoimmune reaction and it doesn't mean you can't take mushrooms. You would think mushrooms would be contraindicated, but that's not necessarily. So because they're immune modulatory, they don't necessarily stimulate immune function. They regulate it in a way that brings it back to homeostasis or into balance. But would that be dose dependent? Because I do know that there are some warnings with some autoimmune conditions not to use. Mushrooms. So is that more theoretical or would that just be more dose dependent? I think it could be dose

Isolates versus whole mushroom

6:20

dependent. And I also think that has to do with isolates, you know, cuz we in Western medicine like to say, oh, if a mushroom is effective, what component in that mushroom is it? And how do we give a giant dose of that one component? Because that's how we, you know, translate into Western medicine. Our reductionist. Way of looking at things is to say, what's the one compound in that mushroom that we can give a massive dose of and get an effect. And so beta can is a classic example from a mushroom where people will take a large dose of just beta can. It's usually beta one, three can. And that's a translation of the medicine and yes, it does have an immune stimulatory effect, but that's because you're using the isolate and not the whole mushroom. So it's just like going back to kind of like the food form, right? I mean, there are different parts of any food. That, you know, they, they all probably work together to create an overall effect, instead of like you're saying isolating, just, you know, one certain part, whether it's the immune stimulating part or the antioxidant part or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And being cognizant of when you're using an isolate to get a certain effect, which I call kind of pushing the body around. Uh, like a nutraceutical dose, a large dose, like three grams of one, three beta glucan is different than saying you're just putting mushrooms in your diet or you're taking a whole mushroom boiled. Um, to me, those are two different things. One works with the body. The other is pushing the body towards a certain physiological state. that is, might be desirable. Maybe you want immune stimulation, but just being aware of where the line is drawn is I think that is useful. Cuz if you wanna know you're not doing any harm, then of course, backing off and doing a whole food product, uh, in this case, whole mushroom makes

What part of mushrooms is medicinal?

7:57

more sense. So, and so that kind of brings us to like, there is this big controversy as to. What is the best form of mushroom to take, right? I mean, there's the fruiting body, which is the part of the mushroom that we see as it grows. And then there's the MyUM, which is the underground kind of, um, I'm making my fingers do Mysia Mysia kind of things. It's like the roots kind of, yeah. It's analogous to the roots of a tree or a plant. Yeah. You know, or, you know, Or is the whole mushroom, from what you're saying, it's sounding like whole mushroom is probably what's ideal. That's exactly it. I think that using the fruiting body makes the most sense. The fruiting body is the mushroom. As we see it above ground, that we take our little Jack knife too, and we slice it and bring it home and eat it. or. You know that you seen the store on the shelf, whether it's Shataki Myis or even button mushrooms, what you're looking at is the fruiting body, and that's what we buy. And that's what we cook up in all Asian medicines that I'm aware of. And that's kind of the traditional use that I'm most versed in. They always use the fruiting body. They didn't use the mycelia. Traditionally I think our translation to saying, oh, let's use the mycelia and put that into a capsule. Or what's called biomass sometimes on the label. That is the, my. I think that that is a way to mass produce what we believe is the active component in the fruiting body. So if it's one, three beta glucan, we'll stick with that example, you can grow that mycelia so quickly and in such abundance compared to growing a fruiting body, which you kind of have to wait for the mushrooms life cycle to do. I think that that's why my Celia became popular because we equate activity. With a certain ingredient and we can grow that ingredient in mass by growing my Celia very quickly. It's a commercial thing. it could work. I'm not saying it doesn't work. I'm just saying my opinion is to do the fruiting body because that's in keeping with traditional medicine and you're getting more than just that active component. You're getting the traditional use of the plant. Granted, you didn't have it encapsulated. You don't have to bring home the mushroom and boil it. You can buy capsules. Fruiting body hot water extracts. That's what I think is more appropriate. I know in certain countries, the use of mushrooms in conjunction with cancer treatments are kind of, I don't, I don't know, I guess, standard of care. Mm-hmm uh, but from what I've heard from other people it's tease that are being consumed. It's not like people are. Necessarily taking capsules, but they're drinking a mushroom tea along with their treatment. I think that's true, except for PSK, which is polysaccharide K, which I think is approved in Japan, but that's what you're saying. That's like a certain component. Exactly. And that's a certain component of the Turkey tail mushroom mm-hmm yes, but I think you're right. Traditional use would be they're given slices of mushrooms that are taken home and you boil them to make a decoction. Which is a fancy word for just boiling your plant or in this case, mushroom, it's a fancy, fancy word for tea. Yeah. So

Coffee & mushrooms?

11:05

the other controversy is. You can find these powdered mushrooms, some of them are added to coffees. Um, some you can add to your smoothies. It's just like, you know, a little container of ground up, either a single mushroom or a combination. you see formulas for. Immune support or for memory and nerve support. Like this is kind of like the trendy thing. Mm-hmm so what's the difference between that doing something like that, where you just have these ground up mushrooms versus a tea versus a capsule, and what's the best way to process it? I mean, that's, it's so confusing because every product says, this is the best way. This is a fine way, you know, like, yeah. Who do we believe you believe me? Well, that's why I'm asking because it's really confusing because I mean, if even I get confused, which I, you know, it's not that hard to get confused, but it's very, there's a lot of information out there.

Mushroom cells are tough

12:04

Yeah. And here's the thing a mushroom. When we see a mushroom the cell wall of a mushroom, remember this is a fungus, this is not a plant. The cell wall of a mushroom is not something that we can break down. Do you mean our digestive system can't break down, correct? Yes, we ourselves, if we took like raw button mushrooms on a salad bar and you eat that your teeth are gonna crush some of those cell walls, but other than that, the rest is going through you. You're not gonna get the goodies. And what we're talking about is I'm just gonna stick with one, three beta glucan, cuz it's one that we've already talked about, but that's inside the cell and it's inside the cell, which means you can't get at it unless you break that cell open and make it available. So as I mentioned, you have teeth so you can choose some of them, but most of it's gonna go through you, not into your bloodstream because you never broke open the cell wall, which is more akin to. The shell of a lobster or a crab, you know, that's kind of what they're kind of made of the same stuff. So it's that, it's, it is really hard to get into these fungal cell walls in any case, um, you have to extract it, which is why in all of the Asian medicines, you bring it home and you boil it. You could also break it open. If you have, if you're putting Chiaki mushrooms in a stir fry, that will break it open. That's what makes it soft and more available. But traditionally you boil the fruiting body. That's how you do it. You break open the cells,

Polysaccharides (ex: beta glucan)

13:20

These compounds are called polysaccharides, which just basically means long sugar molecules, that's why it's called a polysaccharide. You and I don't digest that we absorb it intact. And that polysaccharide is what goes through our bloodstream and affects our immune function. Our immune cells, ultimately in that beta one, three glucan is a type of polysaccharide. So what was the question?

Back to coffee and mushrooms...

13:49

so if I go and I buy the super trendy. Coffee with added mushroom for my memory. Mm-hmm like lion's main coffee blend. Am I doing anything? That's basically what I'm asking and not for me think so hypothetical. I mean, you, I think you really do have to make it super hot. I would actually, you know, Ideal, you would boil it. Um, if they just put dried lions main, but if it says lions main extract, they probably already did it for you. And they're putting it in there. I don't think they do the extracts. Right. So you're just adding hot boiling water to a mug with that in it. you're not doing a decoction where a decoction would be for those who don't know, you're actually cooking it for a longer period of time. It's not just putting something hot over an nerve you're there's cooking going on. Right, right. So I would wonder how much you're actually getting out of that. If you're just steeping it like a tea. I mean, it's, it's powdered, so it's not like it's in a bag. It dissolves, it's like an instant coffee with mushroom. Oh, well, if it dissolves then they, maybe they did process it for you because this mushroom would not dissolve. If you just had powdered mushroom, it wouldn't, it would be, it would be a sludge on the bottom of. And it might be, I don't remember. It's been so long anyways. Yeah. So these are the questions. These are the big questions, because there are so many different ways. There are tablets that are whole mushroom. There are. Capsules, there are dried mushrooms that you could buy in the store. There are fresh mushrooms you could buy at the market, you know? Yep. So how, how should we be taking mushrooms? If we should be taking mushrooms, we'll get to the, the contraindications towards the end, but, basically. what's our mushroom situation here. It needs to be hot water extracted in my opinion. Okay. Hot water extracted, whether they did it for you and it's on the label and it says hot water extract, or you take it home and you throw it in your broth that you're already making, or you make a tea out of it yourself. Either way. It has to be hot water extracted, unless you're making it, like I said, you're throwing my talkies or Shataki or some other mushroom into your stir fry. It's not extraction per se, but you're certainly cooking it down. So you're opening up the cell wall. You're breaking down the cell wall. Yeah. Yeah.

Leah's tips on taking mushrooms

15:53

And I love to add mushrooms to, um, well, when I was going through treatment, I was making myself, Rebecca Kaz has a recipe for this magic. Mineral broth, which is just all these different veggies just thrown in and cooked. And then you just could add some mushrooms in there. Um, little seaweed. It was really good. Mm-hmm so that's, that's how I liked to do them. Um, I also did tablets when I was going through treatment as well. I. Uh, Turkey tail. I did Turkey tail. Yes. Also known as Carola's versa color or now better known as tram's versa color. I know I was just gonna say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Change changing the Latin names I don't know why that happens. It just keeps us all on our toes. That's all. But so speaking of Turkey, tail, I mean, there are so many different types of mushrooms and each one kind of has its place, whether in just kind. The overall field of health or, you know, cancer specifically. there are some mushrooms that I would think of using with people who have certain cancers or are going through certain treatments. It's not as if one mushroom fits. All right. right. And I often do a blend of mushrooms myself. I mean, there's occasions when I'll do singular mushrooms, but a lot of times I will do what is kind of a traditional five mushroom blend because it also keeps the cost down. I mean, Turkey tail has been used and we're probably gonna go into more of this. Should we take a break first? And then we'll come back and talk about certain cancers and human data. Yeah, let's do that. Let's do.

Tina 17:23

Did you know, mushrooms contain vitamin D in the form of vitamin D two mushrooms, like humans make vitamin D as a response to the UV radiation from sunlight.

Which mushrooms for which cancer?

17:40

So I have to be perfectly honest. Every time I. Think of recommending a mushroom. I do have to look up specifically this is not something I've taken to memory. And I just look for a resource to see, which is the most appropriate mushroom for what the person has going on or what treatment they're getting. I'm just putting that out there because yeah, I, none of this is in my memory. You know, as far as the data goes, it's interesting that most people know of my talkie. Some people have heard of Rishi, but when it comes to human data, Turkey tale, which is that Corola versa color or TriMed versa color that has more human data behind it because of that PSK, that polysaccharide K that's found in its and that one in my mind, the data stacks up to say that it's worth time and effort in colorectal cancers, breast cancers and primary brain tumor. Probably in that order, like the, the data's strongest for colorectal and then breast and then brain tumors, like glioblastoma other cancers less. So, I mean, and they've used against other cancers, but there's just less data. And that one tends to be the most expensive of the bunch. So it kind of, the higher, the cost of supplement is the better, the data should be to justify the. Effort and the money to take it. So I think of that one that way. And then I often think of, um, Rishi for fatigue because there was a Cochran review quite a few years ago now that even in the Cochran review, which is a very high level systematic review of studies. It did find that Rishi was helpful for fatigue. Rishi is not all that edible. Just for the record. If you throw that in your broth, it's not when you're gonna wanna chop up and eat afterwards. It, it, it's very Woody, unlike my talking and Chiaki and other edibles, you know, which you can also throw in a broth. So I, I think of those two. And then I think of CEPS, like in my mind, I'm thinking functionally cor decept is traditionally used for lung support and for kidney support and maybe even a little bit for adrenal support. So if somebody. Any condition where I feel like their kidneys and their lungs could use some support, then I might use something like Cortis mushroom, that's cor decept, SIS. So I, I kind of think functionally go data wise. And then I think kind of from a functional perspective, what does this do? Like lion's Maine is better for the brain function. So if somebody is having cognitive difficulties, I might lean towards lion's main and that

Cordyceps

19:56

scenario. So I wanna bring up Cortis cuz that one is an interesting fungus. And I know we talked about this offline. Like I don't think of it necessarily as what one would say is a mushroom, but it's definitely a fungus because it's a parasitic growth on a caterpillar mm-hmm like a specific caterpillar. Yeah. And it's kind of a crazy, I almost said being, but it's, I mean, it's, it's not really a being, it's a it's, it's, it's a crazy concept that, somebody figured out that there is this parasitic fungus. Growing on this caterpillar. And if you use it medicinally, it can help with an array of things. One of them being fatigue. So are you gonna stand by that? Do you think that cor decept is not a mushroom? I mean, mushrooms are fungi, but are all fungi mushrooms? That's that's the question? No, not all fungi or mushrooms. Cuz we have yeasts and other, you know, spore driven. So, yeah, cor decept. I don't know. I was probably is a mushroom, but I'm just in your mind because it grows on caterpillars. It grows on a critter. It, it grows on a critter. it's not growing on a tree or on like decomposing material in the forest somewhere it's growing on. A critter. It grows on a bug. It grows. Yeah, they do call it caterpillar mushroom and I think that should anyone look at what it looks like growing on the caterpillar, you're less likely to take it even as an extract once you see it cause it doesn't look very appetizing, but I did see it. There's this amazing. Booth at, um, I was visiting a friend in California. We went to the Hollywood farmer's market, I think. And there was a booth where they had all these different mushrooms and they did have Cortis and it like off the, off the bug, it's kind of cool looking mm-hmm so, but yeah, I get it. Oh, and yeah,

Why studies in dishes are not so useful

21:57

a lot of these studies are, you know, if you look in PED and you click the human. Checkbox, these studies with mushrooms have been on human cell lines, but they're not necessarily human clinical trials. Right. Which is why the ones that I mentioned actually they do have some human data. Um, right, right. So that's why I might have those priorities first, because of course, if there's human outcome data, that's gonna. Rise to a higher level of justification for the use than anything that happens in a dish, which, you know, we're talking about immune modulation and let's face it. What happens in a dish has very little to do with immune modulatory agents in general, because your immune system is happening in context of your being right. There's a lot more going on than what could possibly happen in a dish. And even rodents, you know, it's a simplified version. We are much more complex and our immune systems are not completely analogous. So when there's human data on something that is immune modulatory, that definitely rises to the top of the evidence pile. I almost don't pay too much attention to what happens in a dish to be perfectly honest. I mean, I think they put it in the dish and say, oh, look at, this is what it does to a natural killer cell, or this is what it does to a T-cell here. And that's all well and good, but without the context of an entire human body, I'm not so sure. Um, all that interested, you know, I really just want the outcome. Does it help or doesn't it you know, in colorectal cancer, people who took Corola had less recurrence. I mean, to me, what happens in the. Doesn't matter at that point. Right. So I, I think there's a bit of that in my mind. And, and, and I do like to try, try to follow. Traditional use a bit, like as much as I know it, I'm not a Chinese medicine or a Tibetan medicine or any other Eastern medicine specialist. but I do use it as kind of just a shadow of an influence in my brain. Yeah. And I, I think the issue with, looking at things in vitro, and I know we've discussed this before is how do you translate that into a dosage for a human. Right. You know, like you're, you're getting into massive doses, which it's expensive. I mean, it's not something that somebody can necessarily keep up, you know, during their treatment. And I guess that that would be another, um, Another thing with taking mushrooms, is, are mushrooms something to be taken just during a specific treatment, whether it's chemotherapy or radiation, or is this something that you take every single day? do you take it once you're in, you know, survivorship, maybe not. Taking other cancer related medications. Like I, I think that's something else that, um, I have patients asking a lot about mm-hmm

Mushrooms in rotation

24:29

yeah. I often have people rotate. So if they, if I do have a mushroom that I think is especially suitable for a particular patient, whether it be Rishi or the Turkey tail or. Cor decept or whatever, I'll have them do that until the bottle is done and then switch to a five mushroom formula and then rotate back to the singular formula just to change it up. Cuz I do think with immune modulation, I do think that the body adapts or the cells adapt, I should say to what it, the stimulation or the influence is the biological influence. So I, I do have people change it up on that note and if they

What dose do you take?

25:02

can't afford. You know, there's one thing I tell everybody, and that is when you're taking medicinal mushrooms in a pill form, you have to take a pretty good dose. And generally speaking for the brands that I use, it tends to be about three grams a day. and three grams a day of some of these mushrooms is expensive. And so I will have people take time off if that's what it takes. I'd rather 'em take a high dose for a week and then take a week off than do a mediocre dose for two weeks straight. Cause I think dose does make a difference when you're talking medicinal mushrooms you'd wanna do a higher dose. And it's, it's like any herb, right? I mean, you're gonna wanna take a break from it. You don't want your body to constantly be, exposed to the same thing every single day. I tell the patients the same thing, you know, they'll take, I'll find out someone's taking EIA every single day for like two years. And I'm like, no, let's. Take some breaks in there. it's not really something you wanna be on all the time. Right. But, I did take lion's main for memory as well as, you know, just general nerve support after my treatment. Mm-hmm and you know, I'm getting this at a physician discount. I have access to, you know, really high quality, you know, herbs and mushrooms. I could not afford to take. Three grams. And so I took less than three grams and I honestly didn't see any difference. I had patients that would take less than the prescribed three grams and they did see a difference. So, you know, is it placebo effect for that? I mean, I don't know. Were they just cuz they were taking something I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Pension is definitely to say, even if you could only afford one week out of a month of the proper dose, I'd rather someone do that than string it out. I mean, I think string it out. Just doesn't work. When you're wanting a desired effect, whether that's for your brain in that case or your immune system, I think you have to take it at the high dose. Um, and that's just from my experience. I mean, I don't really have any other thing else. Except when they did studies, they generally did three grams of PSK in the case of the Chos versus color Turkey tail. Um, they tended to use higher doses and I do think there's a dose differe. Now, if you're eating it in your diet, you're just supporting your immune system. You're getting some polysaccharides. Yes. But you're not getting a medicinal effect. You're just getting more of a background effect and yeah. I mean, what really is better than some sauteed button mushrooms and onions that smells so good. and you could do, but you could do that with any mushroom. Like you could do a little button mushroom some my talkies talky.

For those with sensitivity/allergies to mushrooms...

27:36

Mm, yep. I'm saying all this and I don't tolerate mushrooms anymore. So. That makes me sad. They don't agree with you. Not anymore. I grew up eating them, loving them. It was like my favorite if I don't digest them anymore, I don't know. But that's, you know, that's kind of the one thing where if someone says to me, like they really don't like mushrooms or if, for any reason Just eating mushrooms. Doesn't agree with them in any way. I don't recommend it to them. And I don't remember where I picked that up, but so that was like a bit of wisdom that someone once told me mm-hmm was if somebody doesn't like mushrooms then, or doesn't, um, you know, they don't agree with them, obviously. You're not gonna recommend something that a person has an intolerance to. Right. Well, and the nice thing is, although it's D. The idea of these polysaccharides, which is really the component we're mostly talking about in these mushrooms, it can be found in other plants like akinesia contains its own polysaccharides that affect the immune system. So it's not like mushrooms are the only place you can get, you know, immune modulatory. Components from, uh, from nature. A straggles is the classic plant for polysaccharides. A stra is put into broths usually. So there's, there's other ways of getting them. If you're not into mushrooms or you react to mushrooms or you have a sensitivity or an allergy to them. There's definitely other ways of getting similar components from plants instead of fungi.

Are there any treatment interactions?

29:00

I will say that there are potentially more interactions using other plants than mushrooms. I haven't really found a lot of interactions or contraindications, so there's something like, like Rahi mushroom would not be something I would recommend when somebody is in radiation. Mm-hmm because it can be protective. To cells and you don't wanna protect the wrong cells. Yes. Rashi is a little different than most of these mushrooms. Even when you look at it, you can see this deep, burnt orange to brown color, like a reddishness it's higher in antioxidants than most of the mushrooms. Most of the mushrooms don't have a lot of antioxidant power. They have some, but not a lot. Rahi is an exception to that. And it has a lot of antioxidants and compounds called terpenes that at least theoretical. Interfere with radiation. And so just being cautious, it's not something that I, I, I recommend with radiation. So we're kind of going into the contraindication. So let's take a break and then we'll come back and briefly review times when mushrooms may not be the ideal thing for someone to take. All right. Let's do.

Cautions and contraindications

30:26

All right. So we talked about a little bit about which mushrooms for what? Let's talk a little bit about cautions and contraindications, if there are any. Yeah, and I think this is always the important part that we cover when we talk about supplements. Um, because we are not your doctor people out there. Um, but you should be aware that these aren't things that you know, can be taken by anybody. Right now. We can say that in the kitchen, don't worry about. I mean, you can have some mushrooms in your food. Absolutely. Just to be clear, cuz we've kind of followed back and forth between kitchen and capsule. So we're talking about isolates and intentionally taking medicinal mushrooms in a concentrated form. So that's what the contraindications would be around. Right, right. And

Influence on blood sugar (glucose)

31:15

kind of overall, whenever you read about contraindications with mushroom. Just, um, having a, an effect on blood sugar where it would like further lower blood sugar is just kind of a common theme. Um, so for people who are diabetic and are on medications, it's just kind of being aware mm-hmm of, there may be an additional blood sugar lowering effect. And just keep that in mind. Yeah. I gotta say I I've seen that. Caution. And I don't know, maybe it's just, my patient population is already monitoring their blood sugar and generally not eating a lot of sugar and things like that. I haven't actually seen it in practice. I haven't seen any, you know, major glucose shifts because someone started a mushroom extract. Oh. And I have patients, you know, throughout history who have had. Really poorly controlled blood sugars. And so how, I don't see it suddenly being managed by taking mushrooms. So, I mean, we have different patient populations historically you and I mm-hmm so yeah, no, it's not something where. I have a patient with uncontrolled diabetes who takes medications and then suddenly starts taking mushrooms and it's like, oh look, Liz is controlling it. Yeah. You know, it's but it is something that is out there consistently on paper. Yes. So it is something to be mentioned. Um,

Immunosuppressive drugs

32:32

I think the big one that would be a contraindication, even though these are immune modulating, I would say if somebody is on a treatment that. Immunosuppressant. Yes, I agree. I agree when you're, when you, because, because if you're on an immune suppressant drug of any kind, you're pushing the body to suppress its immune function. So it is possible. The mushrooms try to stimulate immune function because the immune system is suppressed. So if you think about it, the mushrooms are doing their job and that scenario, but that's not a job you want done. And the same goes for when I have patients who are on immunotherapy. Very cautious because of that same idea, you don't want to push one way or the other because the drug is designed to work a very specific way. And so if they are also taking mushrooms, which is doing some sort of modulation, is it, you know, how is that interfering with the medication they're receiving? Oh, you mean like if someone's taking like a monoclonal antibody, like rituximab, if somebody, if somebody is. On, um, why don't I not know the name of these drugs, like nivolumab? Hmm. Or, you know, like the PD one PDL, one inhibitors. Okay. I tend to be cautious with that. Yeah. I, I agree with the PD one or any of the checkpoint inhibitors because of the consequences of having too much immune reaction in those scenarios is pretty severe. I mean, you can, it can mean the. Otherwise useful treatment. So I'm pretty cautious around those too. I, I totally agree with that. And then

Leukemias, lymphomas, multiple myeloma

34:03

I think kind of based on something similar, like that is any hematologic cancer. So lymphomas, I'm very cautious with using mushrooms. Yeah, I, yeah, it depends on the cancer for me and what, what else they're getting. Um, so if they are, they have rituximab that I just mentioned the rituximab or Rituxin is something I may try to compliment with a mushroom because in the case of indolent or low grade follicular lymphoma, I've had some patients where. The after a couple years of taking that monoclonal antibody still don't have a recurrence 10 years later, 12 years later. Um, and we did compliment that monoclonal antibody with things like mushrooms, high dose vitamin C, things like that, things that we were trying to augment the immune kill kind of idea of the, of the lymphoma cells. So yeah, I'd take that on a case by case

Mushrooms as blood thinner

34:54

basis, for sure. There also are some cautions with. With mushrooms affecting platelets. Again, that isn't something that I have noticed because patients that I'm recommending mushrooms to are also getting treatment. And so right. Treatments affect platelets. You know, I don't. Necessarily think that, you know, oh, it's the mushroom doing it because more consistently it's, it's the treatment in a variety of patients, you could have two patients getting the same drug, they have, um, some sort of antiplatelet effect, but only one is taking the mushroom. So yeah, I think it's a hard thing to kind of determine. Yeah. So if someone has easy bruising or easy bleeding, I would be cautious. Yeah, I would, I would at least monitor it and say kinda like I monitor if I gave someone. Baby aspirin. I'm I'm always asking about platelet aggregation and making sure that they don't bruise easy. I think mushrooms in a high enough dose as an is isolate. Probably. Yeah. That's an effect that I would be concerned about in that patient population. Especially if somebody has had radiation to their bladder area or their pelvis, and they might have what we call a fryable tissue inside, you know, where it's tender, they can get a, an easy bleed in the area. I have had post prostate cancer. I can think of patient. Who took mushrooms and they would have more tendency to bleed from their prior radiation. Oh, so you have seen it mm-hmm yeah, that one, I, that one I would be, I I'm, I'm cognizant of that one and I do watch out for that one. Um, and there's no particular mushroom that I think of. I just watch for that all the time. And I think mushrooms are effective antiplatelet, aggregation compounds. Yeah. And I just, like I said, I don't know if my patient population necessarily. takes the high enough dosage. Mm-hmm. because of the expense mm-hmm so I don't know if I've seen that. I mean, if I do have a patient with very low platelets on their labs, I mean, I have held all supplements, you know, just right. You just want the body to recover. Yep. So I'm, yeah. I'm not opposed to doing that. I think more of the contraindications probably come from, like you were saying, those isolates, whether it's PSK, beta glucans, and then

What is AHCC?

37:01

the, a HCC, which we did not really go into, but that's also an isolate from. Mushrooms, technically they monkeyed with. A H C, C stands for activated Hexo correlated compound. And there are some studies out there with it and it's a, semisynthetic it doesn't occur in nature. It's a nutraceutical. Right, right. That's why I'm saying that they're like these isolates that, I mean, that I'm including that with the other two, I guess. I shouldn't, I don't know. I, no, no, they do. They, they, they advertise it. They market it as if it's a mushroom compound, but just, I like to be like, technically does it, or doesn't it occur in nature? In my mind, if it doesn't occur in nature, then you know, I dock it a little bit. Right. It goes in the negative column. I, I ideally wanna do it. Compounds the human body has seen over, you know, over time rather than new compounds and that's. Yeah. And that one does have cautions. When you look, you know, at potential interactions, with medications that are metabolized through the cytochrome P four 50, ISO enzyme two D six. So that would include. A lot of the opioid pain medications, um, Zofran that people take for nausea Tamoxifen, which we talk about all the time, because it has a lot of potential for being interacted with. And also, Dr. Rubin, which ISRI EIN, which is a common. Chemotherapy for a few cancers. So yeah. Most of the mushrooms don't affect the cytochrome P four 50 S but I know yeah, a HCC does. Yeah. So it's kind of like the farther you get from the natural form, not to say that there aren't natural things that interact with right medications. There are plenty of natural things that interact with medications, but once you start getting into that more isolated. Component you can run into more caveats. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny that they call it a semisynthetic cuz it, that could be a hard stop too. It's either synthetic or it's not right, but I think they extract it from a mushroom and then they tweak it chemically to make this a HCC compound. Is there anything else we haven't covered? I think that's

In summary...

39:06

a good one. Oh one on mushrooms. So whatever. So let's so let's kind of summarize. And so the best part of the mushroom to take would be the whole mushroom and. taking it in a form where it has already been broken down or, you know, whether it's with hot water, doing a decoction, which is hot water mm-hmm you know, and having, being more cautious with taking isolates. Yes. There's difference between nutritional and Nutri uses and nutritional is what you use in your kitchen. Culinary mushrooms, eat 'em enjoy them. And then Nutri in my mind. Say it's an isolate or a concentration and you're using it to actually get an effect in the body, like a net effect. You wanna use it as a biological pressure of sorts to push the body in a certain direction. In this case, immune modulation or downright immune stimulation. Right. And I mean, that's kind of used in quotes, like, are you actually stimulating the immune system? Yeah, it's a concept. That's hard for us. I think in Western medicine to even wrap our brain around the idea that the body has the intelligence to use the same compound in two totally different ways, you know, it can stimulate or suppress depending on what, what the human body needs at that time. Not a concept we have in Western medicine. And I think just the concept of immune stimulation is. Kind of a controversial topic as well. Mm-hmm whether or not one could actually push your immune system, in that direction. So anyways, controversial and standard Western medicine, but not in our world. Absolutely. That's yeah. yeah, just conventional medicine. Yeah. And conventional medicine. So

Winding down

40:40

if there are other supplements that you want us to talk about, just shoot us an email, the cancer pod, gmail.com. Share this episode. With people you love people you think would find it interesting. Yes. And go ahead and follow us, hit that little plus button or subscribe or whatever you're listening to. Whether it's apple, Spotify, Google, Stitcher. I don't know. We're everywhere. So whatever you're listening to us on, don't forget to follow on the Pandora. If you're listening to us on the Pandora, just for the record, nearly nobody listens us to us on Pandora, but if you're so inclined, check it. Yeah, we're not dissing Pandora. Um, it's a running joke. so, and you can always buy us a coffee and it doesn't have to be a mushroom coffee. It could just be a regular coffee. You can find the link in our show notes. Mm-hmm So on that note, I am Dr. Lea Sherman and I'm Dr. Tina Caer, and this is the cancer pod until next time, I'm trying to kill a mushroom.