Fasting, Is It Worth It?

Leah: 0:00

We're talking fasting today,aren't we?

Tina: 0:02

Yeah.and you just had dinner,so this is appropriate.

Leah: 0:05

yes,I,yeah,we were recording late for us because I wanted to get,um,some pad Thai for my supper because I like to eat early so that I have a nice gap between my last meal of one day and my first meal the next day.

Tina: 0:21

So do you actually look at your watch,note your time and say,okay,tomorrow morning I'm gonna have breakfast after a certain hour?

Leah: 0:27

Well,I like to kind of finish eating by6:00PM I mean,like,I'll round it up,I'll round it up to6:00PM so then I can eat after seven tomorrow,cuz I do13hours,at least13hours.Sometimes I get busy and I do14.But

Tina: 0:44

All right.So we're gonna talk about that in this episode.Fasting during treatment,after treatment,what it entails,who should do

Leah: 0:52

how long

Tina: 0:53

Yeah.

Leah: 0:54

is it safe?Um,yeah,fasting in cancer,that's what we're talking about.

Tina: 0:59

And of course,as always,we'll hit.Contraindications for it too.So when you shouldn't be doing it,

Leah: 1:04

Yes,absolutely

Tina: 1:06

who shouldn't be doing it?

Leah: 1:07

So should we get into it or are we gonna,do our music right now?

Tina: 1:10

Cue the music.I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the science-y one

Leah: 1:16

and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside

Tina: 1:20

And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care

Leah: 1:24

But we're not your doctors

Tina: 1:26

This is for education entertainment and informational purposes only

Leah: 1:30

do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor

Tina: 1:35

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own

Leah: 1:41

Welcome to the cancer pod

Tina: 1:59

So in preparing for this episode on fasting,I just now thought to myself,what?I didn't look up the term fast,like F A s T.Why do we even call it that?I don't know.I don't know the answer to this question.

Leah: 2:14

through the magic of the internet.I'm gonna look it up.

Tina: 2:17

Don't you think it's an interesting term?Like from a linguistics perspective,

Leah: 2:20

Oh yeah,for sure.Yeah.

Tina: 2:22

it's an odd term.

Leah: 2:23

Well,being that fasting has been around since like the days of Hippocrates,Yeah,I wonder when the term fast came about.So this is just the first thing that popped up on the Google.So you know it's gotta be true Fast is derived from the Anglo-Saxon word.I don't know how to say this.F A E S T,which means firm or fixed the practice of going without food at certain times was called fasting from the Anglo-Saxon fasten

Tina: 2:50

Oh,

Leah: 2:50

to hold oneself from food.That was from True North,

Tina: 2:53

okay.They should know.

Leah: 2:55

is,yeah,there you go.

Tina: 2:57

True North is a clinic that's dedicated to water fasting,among other things.

Leah: 3:02

Yeah.We'll probably talk a word or two about them,or at least about the water fasting.So yeah,that's where that came from.And yeah,fasting has been around since,I mean,the days of the Bible.

Tina: 3:14

Yeah,I think we've been recording it since then,but I think it was a natural process when we were hunter gatherers and we didn't have food,we fasted,not voluntarily,but we went without food.

Leah: 3:25

Right.I was thinking kind of voluntary fasting.Like I know growing up,Jewish,you know,the fast at Yom Kippur,it's a,from sundown till sundown,so it's a,you know,kind of not that long of,I mean relatively,not really that long of a fast,especially cuz sleeping is involved during part of it.

Tina: 3:43

that's the best part.We're gonna talk about that kind of the time-restricted eating id idea,is a type of intermittent fasting,but we're gonna talk about that and why it's a good idea to fast while you sleep.

Leah: 3:56

because it's easier cuz you're sleeping,

Tina: 3:58

it sure helps

Leah: 4:00

It helps you not be hungry

Tina: 4:02

for most people.Yeah.I,you know,there's always a few people who have to get up in the night and snack.I've had those patients who are like,I must do this.it's always an indication that there's something off in their biology,in their,you know,metabolism,in their circadian rhythm or in their digestion.So I just wanna throw that out there cuz I think there's always a few people who are like,yeah,but I have to eat.

Leah: 4:23

and that might not be the person to fast until they figure out what's going on.in my mind,if they're like,no,I have to wake up in the middle of the night to eat something,then I will be like,no,maybe we rethink that.But I don't really talk a lot about fasting with my patients right now since I don't really talk about diet.I mean,I talk a little bit,but,Okay.So the history of fasting,we kind of,I don't know,I didn't delve too deep into it,but yes,I know that it was,way back in days of your that they did it as well as at those like those health spas,sanatoriums,I'm sure they did fasting then.we didn't look up to see exactly what the indications were in the times of Hippocrates to fast for medical reasons,but yeah,religions have,religions have been doing it for millennia.

Tina: 5:07

Yeah.Yeah.All the major religions have some fasting component

Leah: 5:11

the major,all the major religions are doing it

Tina: 5:15

That's totally vogue

Leah: 5:18

So,but in terms of cancer,why would somebody consider fasting?like what's the ultimate goal with fasting in cancer?

Tina: 5:29

Well,it depends if we're talking about during treatment time or post-treatment,I suppose.

Leah: 5:36

Let's start during.

Tina: 5:37

Okay,so during treatment time,the easiest way to imagine this is that generally speaking,this isn't always the case,but a lot of times cancer cells are dividing at a more rapid pace and they need all of the fuel and all of the components that normal cells need.So they need carbohydrates,they need protein.They need fat and they need that because they keep producing new cells,which are made of those components,and they need the energy to do that.So they're,they're similar to normal cells,but they're going,going,going,and they're not stopping because they're cancer cells,so they don't know when to stop.If you fast normal cells in the body while you're fasting,normal cells in the body will sense that,and they will slow down their processes.They'll say,oh,there's a calorie deficit.Let's go into,I'll use the word hibernation,for lack of a better term,So they,they slow down and they say,oh,fuel is minimal,food is minimal.Let's all dial this back and not proliferate as much as we normally would.Let's not chew up as much energy as we usually would.Of course,your brain has to have its energy.Your heart still has to have energy,so it still has.Chugging along your cells are still doing their thing,but many cells in the body know enough to tamp down their normal processes.Cancer cells do not have that capacity.So what we're relying on is what was dubbed by,uh,a researcher who's famous in this realm,vaulter Longo down in LA um,the differential stress response so that you take advantage of the fact that normal cells will react one way and cancer cells don't have the ability to react as normally to the lack of calories.So if you do it during chemotherapy or during a treatment that's supposed to destroy the cancer cells,the idea here is that the normal cells slow their processes down while the cancer cells keep doing their thing.And because chemotherapy in particular targets rapidly dividing cells,you end up killing those cells more selectively.So you should have less side effects from the treatment.That's the idea.

Leah: 7:47

so you're sensitizing the cells,the cancer cells,to,to take up more chemo or be more responsive,or to be more dead from chemo.

Tina: 7:57

yeah,yeah.In a complete

Leah: 7:59

be to be more dead,woo,more dead to become targets,to become better targets for the chemo.

Tina: 8:06

Yes.So in a complete oversimplification,your normal cells know enough to duck and cover and the cancer cells do not.

Leah: 8:14

They're going underneath the desk to take a little nappy nap because they aren't getting their snack.

Tina: 8:18

and the cancer cells are like,what?

Leah: 8:21

The cancer cells are like throwing paper at each other and having a party and.Woo,look what's coming.Here comes the chemo,let's drink it up.That kind of thing.That's my analogy.

Tina: 8:33

I like it.Yeah.Pretty much.

Leah: 8:36

yeah,so,and there is some thought that with like,you know,short-term fasting around treatment,it could possibly reduce some of the side effects that come about,like nausea and vomiting.so that,you know,that was kind of appealing when the idea was introduced to me by my oncologist.

Tina: 8:57

Yeah.That it's reason to do it during treatment is because it lowers a lot of the side effect profile of the chemotherapy that's being given.

Leah: 9:05

Is it,it's also supposed to encourage from when I'm remembering from like the ProLon packaging,it encourages cells to,to kill themselves,like when they need to,which wasn't happening necessarily before.and that's how cancer forms is because your cells don't recognize that something's wrong and they don't off themselves.And so the idea behind fasting is that it promotes kind of the,the cells cleaning themselves up.

Tina: 9:32

Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.The whole idea of autophagy,you mean?

Leah: 9:36

Yeah.

Tina: 9:37

Mm-hmm.autophagy is a process that is a normal cellular process throughout the body.We have autophagy happening.Autophagy is the destruction of cells.There's different types of autophagy,so I'll just leave it at that one word.And it's spelled,it looks like when it's spelled,it looks like auto Fiji,P H A G y,autophagy,but it's,um,autophagy.So,so now you,now,you know,

Leah: 10:02

Now I know.Now you know why I was avoiding saying the word Autophagy.it also can do things like improve insulin resistance.that's another,that's another reason why someone would do it during treatment and after.

Tina: 10:17

Yeah.And through some fairly intricate mechanisms that we will not go into.high insulin leads to resistance,um,of the chemotherapy or the radiation therapy or even some immunotherapy.So high insulin is not a good thing during treatment time.It's not great afterwards either.There's many reasons,but,um,it does lead to a direct.resistance to killing the cancer cells.So,yes,on that note,we definitely wanna keep the insulin at the lower end and fasting.Does that,

Leah: 10:48

So anything else on why somebody would fast during treatment?I don't think of weight loss.I know after treatment people are like,oh,I do it for,you know,weight loss.And I think it's,the jury's still out as to whether or not that's really,effective.Um,but I don't encourage anyone who wants to do it during treatment for weight loss that that's not,that's not the goal.And I think if you fast appropriately,you won't lose weight.

Tina: 11:17

Yeah,I think,uh,depends where you start.I think it depends on how much excess adipose you have to start with.Because some of these fasting diets will eat to weight loss because you're just taking in so many less calories and your body has to get the fuel somewhere.there was one done in the last year or two that showed when people went on a fasting mimicking diet,they certainly lost weight.And that was despite the fact that they put them on a regime to do exercises to build muscle.

Leah: 11:41

But wouldn't the exercise also contribute to the weight

Tina: 11:45

it was resistive exercise.So the idea was that they were,they were,try it wasn't aerobic or,um,cardio,

Leah: 11:51

But you could still lose weight

Tina: 11:53

exercise,

Leah: 11:53

exercising,right.

Tina: 11:54

I guess so yeah.The idea of resistive exercise is to build muscle.But yeah,I can just tell you that this one study was very careful.Um,they were,everybody in it was monitored.but across the board,people.Lost weight with every fasting mimicking cycle that they did.So they did it,during their treatment time,during their chemotherapy time,or whatever treatment they were getting.In this particular study,there were all sorts of different,treatments that people got.There was immunotherapies,there was radiation,there was even some biological agents,this didn't select just for chemo,but they did do,fasting mimicking diet,which we'll talk about more in detail.But a fasting mimicking diet is low calorie.and it intentionally deprives the person of certain amino acids and it keeps the carbohydrates low.um,F M D fasting mimicking diet is what we,what we say.but yeah,across the board,that was the one issue with it was that,was that it it led to weight loss.Mm-hmm.which is fine to an extent.You just can't get it down too,too low.Right.You don't want it the body composition to

Leah: 12:53

I,yeah,I mean,again,it depends on,um,the type of cancer,the stage of cancer and,the treatment that the person's getting.So that kind of could lead us to what would the contraindications be of fasting.

Tina: 13:07

Yeah.You know,some cancers are notorious for leading to a tendency to lose muscle mass.the loss of muscle mass,as you know,is called sarcopenia.And After a certain amount of muscle loss,your immune system suffers,So it leads to an immune depressed state.But some cancers,especially stage four cancers,and cancers that affect the upper GI tract in particular,lung cancer,a lot of the times they all lead to the sarcopenia,sarcopenic state if they go too far,if it's a progressive disease and we're talking late stage disease.Generally,those are the patients that probably are not suited to be fasting.We really don't want someone going without calories who is already prone to losing muscle mass and losing weight to the point where it can lead to,um,system failures.So I would put the top of the list.Lung cancers,GI cancers.Who else?Anyone who has a low bmi.

Leah: 14:11

Yeah.I think if you're going into your treatment already,malnourished.or at risk of malnourishment.like you're saying,like GI cancers,if somebody has to,have a feeding tube placed,maybe because they're getting radiation to the esophagus.Um,yeah,anything like that I think would be,a contraindication.Definitely.Anyone who has a history of eating disorders,

Tina: 14:35

and on that note,I will tell you some of the toughest patients I've seen over time are the people who don't know that they are underweight.Um,so in that category of,of patients where,I think they shouldn't fast,but they think they're normal weight.But I'm looking right at them.I can see they,to me look underweight.Then you put'em on the scale and their body mass index indicates18or less.They are underweight by definition,but they don't see it.Um,that's actually the hardest folks for me to talk out of doing fasting,cuz I'm already worried about them,even though they might've been this weight their entire life and they're used to it.I'm like,no,I don't think you should be losing more weight.I think I find that to be like the toughest subcategory of patients that I see in the situation.Most people who are underweight,who have lost weight are like,yes,I agree.I'm underweight.I don't wanna do this.You know,it doesn't feel right.But people who have,basically body dysmorphia,you know,they see something different in the mirror than what I see as a clinician.That's a tough,that's a tough group to stop from fasting for me.

Leah: 15:37

And when I fasted,which I've talked about in several episodes,um,my oncologist at the time was conducting,I believe it was a phase two clinical trial,with women with early stage breast cancer,and he was looking at their labs and looking at,um,IGF one and all these other,you know,different labs.I wasn't part of that trial,but he said,if you're interested in fasting,and his concern was,I was thin and I did not,my weight did not change throughout treatment.Um,because when I wasn't fasting,I was still eating.I never lost my appetite.I didn't have nausea or anything to interfere with,my eating.So,um,but that was his concern.And his concern also was with my taking the steroids.that I don't know,something about my weight and the steroids.I can't remember what it was.But,um,yeah,and I did have broth.When I had my infusion.

Tina: 16:32

Mm-hmm.

Leah: 16:32

have broth.

Tina: 16:33

So,so you did fast during chemotherapy,

Leah: 16:37

I fasted starting24hours before and then for24hours after,up to24hours after,

Tina: 16:44

and we should clarify that by fasting,we may not low calorie,not zero calorie,

Leah: 16:50

I had water and then I chose to have broth during my infusion and that was all I.was maybe16ounces of broth,whether it was bone broth or um,vegetable broth,depending what they had at the cancer center.But,um,yeah,so I I just,that I just had16ounces of broth within the,the whole period of,um,my treatment and the fasting period.Yeah.

Tina: 17:15

And was that broth just bone broth or did it have like veggies and other things and like a good broth?

Leah: 17:20

I was like,um,it's the Rebecca Katz.Well,if I made it,what?Cuz I started,the last meal I had before my fast was homemade.Rebecca Katz magic mineral broth with chicken bones thrown in.Um

Tina: 17:34

And we'll,we'll link to that just for,to let

Leah: 17:37

Oh,cuz,cuz we love it cuz it's like the best

Tina: 17:39

Yeah.

Leah: 17:40

And then during my infusion I just had whatever they had at the cancer center.So I don't know what it was,I don't think it was like nourishing with all the other stuff.I think it was.bone broth.And then I broke my fast with broth.But yeah,I just had water and then I made sure that I had like,I don't know,I,for some reason I was drinking smart water thinking that it was like electrolyte,I don't know,just,it had something I didn't drink reverse osmosis water that we had at home because it's just dead of all minerals and everything.So I just had made sure that my,whatever water I was drinking had minerals in it and I didn't drink tap water cause I was living in Phoenix and that water has a lot of minerals in it.that was too many.So,um,yeah,that was my,that was my regimen.So yeah,I didn't,except for my last treatment when I did have lunch,cuz it was,I talked about this,the lunch was gluten-free,fried chicken and it was my last chemo and I was like,I'm doing it

Tina: 18:34

Yeah.Why not?Last one

Leah: 18:35

last one.Gluten-free fried chicken.God,that stuff was good.Oh,back in the day.So yeah,

Tina: 18:44

so,

Leah: 18:45

I,yeah,I basically had nothing other than broth.

Tina: 18:47

okay.

Leah: 18:48

So it wasn't zero,but it was pretty close to zero.

Tina: 18:51

Sure.Yeah.I,I often,that's pretty close to the advice I would give my patients.Um,I'd have them do more of a vegan broth though,

Leah: 19:01

I probably would like n like if it were to happen now,which I hope it doesn't ever happen again,but I probably would do,yeah,more vegan.But at the time it just seemed like what seemed really nourishing is something that like I,you know,

Tina: 19:15

Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.

Leah: 19:16

appealed to me.

Tina: 19:17

Yeah.Yeah.

Leah: 19:19

probably wouldn't do bone broth again.

Tina: 19:21

Yeah.And,and the reasoning for that,and the,now that we know,um,the deprivation of nutrients in,in my mind,whenever I say that,I'm thinking carbohydrates,protein,fats.Right?So the deprivation of that,the,the deficiency of one or more of those is what we're trying to do.We're trying to have people fast or have low calorie.Low calorie means you've gotta be low in one or more of those.And it looks like.All three are used by cancer cells to some extent.I mean,it's fine if people can water fast and they're capable and they're used to fasting and,but if they're brand new to it,I always do the vegan broth.Cause I figured it's pretty low in protein.I mean,relative to,to me.And then there's no need to add fat so they vegetables won't have much fat in them.And then the carbohydrate,I generally would have them do low carb celery and onions and greens and,maybe a potato,but not a lot,so

Leah: 20:20

the,so that wouldn't be the magic mineral

Tina: 20:22

mm-hmm.Yeah.It dependent on the patient and how much nourishment I thought they could go without.Right.So kind of,uh,case by case basis,but I made it vegan on purpose to make it low protein,low fat and low carbohydrate,but something to do,you know,something to drink and hydrate with.

Leah: 20:39

And I think having that flavor like really helped.I mean,again,I've mentioned it like I was fasting and so when they'd access my port and then the,the saline would come on through,I was like,to me it tasted like garlic water and so whenever they'd access my port,I was like,mm.Garlic Like so many people are so grossed out by it.But I was like,I'm hungry,Can you smell that?I wasn't hungry though.That's the really crazy thing is I wasn't hungry.My first treatment.had been fasting since before I had my port placed because I had my port placed the day before I started chemo.

Tina: 21:18

right.

Leah: 21:19

And so I had been fasting for,I mean that whole fast period,I was like60something hours.And honestly like,they just kept me doped up.First I was knocked out for my porn placement,and then I was so loopy and I mean,I just kept fasting and um,yeah,I don't recommend that,but it,it,I,I was in it,you know,like you're in it and so you're like,okay,I'm just gonna do this.And so I never really sat around and,and was like,oh,I'm hungry.Cuz they'd gimme my chemo.I was whacked out on Benadryl and go home and sleep and so it just,I kind of like,

Tina: 21:53

Yeah.

Leah: 21:55

and I had tea and black coffee,

Tina: 21:57

yeah.That's totally legit.

Leah: 21:58

it,so it's like,as long as I had my coffee in the morning I was like,I'm good.

Tina: 22:02

Yeah.Yeah.You have some flavors going in and,and again,fluids are important for hydration,so,uh,you don't wanna go without them,so,so during treatment,the idea there is to lessen some of the side effects,and we'll put some,some links to some very early data on that.But it's also a matter of.It's adjunctive chemotherapy.there's a lot of people who end up gaining weight during chemotherapy as well.So for some people going through and breast cancer comes to mind,earlier stages of breast cancer when it's,adjunctive to the surgery,surgery,radiation,the tendency is to gain weight.I'm not as concerned about those people,right.I'm not as concerned about an earlier stage.They're using steroids.At the same time,there's a lot of issues with weight,with a lot of people already before they start treatment.All that kind of

Leah: 22:50

plus you're messing with the hormones.You mess with the hormones,you're gonna go,yeah,you're gonna go a little wacky.

Tina: 22:56

Yeah.

Leah: 22:57

more contraindications

Tina: 22:59

yes,yes.

Leah: 22:59

somebody with diabetes,if someone has diabetes,even though,you know this is supposed to improve insulin resistance and all of that,if you're going through treatment and you have diabetes,I,I would say that's a contraindication.

Tina: 23:10

Yeah,I agree.I agree.I think if there is a case by case basis,any preexisting condition for that matter,right?Has to be looked at and vetted and say,you know,what happens if your blood sugar goes low?What happens in your particular scenario because it will go low.so the,you know,a lower end glucose in your bloodstream is part of the strategy of this fasting around treatment.So yeah,you do have to take it case by case.So and we always say don't take what we're talking about as medical advice in this situation in particular,probably because yeah,not everyone should be fasting around chemo.I mean,if you're otherwise healthy,you know,and you don't have any issues and weight's not an issue,you don't,you're not on the low end of the B M I scale.No matter what you think Yeah,then you're more likely to be a candidate,but you still should clear it with your dietician or someone.

Leah: 23:57

Yeah,definitely work with somebody who is,certified as a dietician,I would say,and who is familiar with fasting cuz some dieticians are not all that familiar with working with cancer patients and fasting.

Tina: 24:09

the catch22of talking to your medical oncologist is,unless they're at a fairly progressive cancer center,I would say most of them are not very aware up to date or otherwise,you know,approving of such a thing there.The old school thing was just eat,eat,eat,calories,calories,calories,and so,

Leah: 24:28

and that's,yeah,that's still,that's still happening.Just,you know,get as many calories.It doesn't matter what it is,quality doesn't matter.And I suppose at some point that is true,but with somebody who has,like,I'm just gonna stick with early stage breast cancer,just having them,you know,not being mindful,I don't know,Um,okay.I'm gonna keep,continue to,to talk about um,contraindications.So,um,I would say anytime there's any sort of a healing issue.So if,if surgery is in the plan,I do not recommend fasting around surgeries.you need those nutrients to help your body to heal.So if you've had a surgery and you're having like wound healing,Is,I don't recommend fasting.and then this other thing is something that I've talked to you about.What is the duration of your treatment?So is it one infusion every two to three weeks or is it multiple infusions during a week?Um,the one that always comes to mind is like a treatment for colon cancer.it's a regimen called FOLFOX where you get your infusion,your infusions on one day,and then you go home and for48hours you wear basically something that's infusing you with,the five fu part of that.And if someone were to do fasting,let's just say like24hours before,throughout their treatment,and then for24hours after their disconnect from the.Pump,that's a really long time.

Tina: 25:57

right?

Leah: 25:58

And most likely they have a GI cancer,which would be a contraindication,but,um,or not necessarily a contraindication,just like a huge caution sign.Um,so yeah,so there are certain treatment regimens where I'm like,that's a really long span

Tina: 26:14

yes.

Leah: 26:15

time,you know,to be fasting.And so maybe that's not the best

Tina: 26:18

Mm-hmm.Yeah.And this goes back to what you said,which was work with somebody who's familiar with this and can modify it so that maybe you don't do a long fast that whole time,but maybe you kind of go into it,dip down into a fast,come back out the other side of the fast and finish it off.So it might take a week to do that.So you have slightly lower calories,go down more fast for two days,come back out,who knows?I mean,it depends on the person and how long they can do it and,and,and on the treatment.

Leah: 26:44

Yeah.And how they are going into their treatment in terms of.you know,nourishment and then,yeah.So working with somebody who is familiar with cancer treatments and not just kind of things that,it's all the same thing.

Tina: 26:56

Yes,

Leah: 26:57

those are the,those are the big contraindications that I can think of.

Tina: 27:00

I think that's a,I think that's about,about right.I mean,you do have to realize that you're depriving your entire body,not just the cancer.And so that helps to kind of frame the idea of it.Can you afford to deprive your,your body of calories?

Leah: 27:14

And,you know,things like,are you preparing meals for your family while you're while you're fasting?That's a real thing to consider.You know,cuz it,it can make it harder when you have to prepare all the meals and,you know,not,not eat anything.So,and there are,there are different thoughts in terms of the fasting.Like some people are like,oh fast,36hours before treatment through the treatment,36hours after.And then there's the24hours,you know,one.And so there are all kinds of thoughts.It's all still in the preliminary stages of research.It's,there's nothing that's really,you know,been done that is conclusive.

Tina: 27:53

Yes.And so as all treatments that are preliminary evidence might be useful,but we don't know firmly yet,um,that means your medical oncologist is probably not gonna say,yay,go do that,because the evidence is not completely,you know,ironclad and it's not conclusive.So it's unlikely to get the vote,the approval stamp of your medical oncologist.But you really do need to work with somebody who knows it and ask the question,why not do it?And if there's a good reason not to do it,then you have to pay attention to that.Don't blow that off.So why not?Might be diabetes or you're underweight or whatever.But you do have to ask,why not do this and give that some serious thought.Should we take a break and then come back and talk about,

Leah: 28:34

take a break and then we'll talk about,we'll come back and talk about the different kinds of fasting that are out there.Um,

Tina: 28:41

and we'll talk about your experience with the fasting mimicking.

Leah: 28:45

Oh,yeah.

Tina: 28:45

Yeah,you

Leah: 28:47

Yeah,me.All right.We'll be right back.All right,we're back.We are back.And we're talking about fasting.

Tina: 29:03

Yeah.And so one of the easiest things to do,I think,and we should all do this just to keep our circadian rhythm normalized,is to fast between dinner and breakfast the next day.right?

Leah: 29:17

Yeah,I think that's the easiest.and then in terms of how long,well,you know what,I actually think that having,and it's,I don't think it's considered a fast,but for many people,I'm not gonna say for everybody,but for many people,having like three to four hours in between eating meals,I think is really important.Now,there are some people who are at risk for weight loss.They're not getting in the calories that they need with their meals for,you know,they have blood sugar issues,whatever it may be.they probably need to eat more frequently as they go through treatment.But for your average,I'm putting in quotes,healthy cancer patient,somebody who doesn't have a lot of stuff going on.Um,if you're able to eat and have a gap in between meals of three to four hours,you're allowing for that insulin response to happen.

Tina: 30:09

Right,right.So just making sure that you have some interim between meals during the day is what you're

Leah: 30:15

Mm-hmm.

Tina: 30:15

so that your normal blood sugar variation can happen.

Leah: 30:19

Yeah.And that's again,for the person who is going through treatment and doesn't have any issues with blood sugar in the first place,doesn't have any risk of weight loss.You know,you're not having vomiting or diarrhea or something.We're experiencing any sort of loss of,minerals and electrolytes and.

Tina: 30:35

Mm-hmm.

Leah: 30:36

Yeah.So for someone who is tolerating their treatment,whatever it may be,um,and possibly for people who are beyond their treatment and maybe taking,you know,some,some sort of medication for maintenance or something and they're tolerating it.have that gap in between,I thi I think is important.It helps with digestion as well.

Tina: 30:54

between meals,you have what's called a migratory mortar complex.M M C that kind of helps sweep the food through.It sits in your stomach for a certain time,it moves its way through.There's peristalsis in the gut and all of this should be a certain time within90minutes after a meal.It should all kind of have pushed through.And that migratory motor complex happens between meals to push things through normally.So you want it to,you want it to be kind of cleansed through so there's no food at all in the gut for a short period of time.If there's always food in there,it actually makes people more prone to,to what we call dysbiosis or having the wrong organisms inhabiting the small intestine.So It helps you normalize your gut bacteria.

Leah: 31:35

Yeah,so,so that's kind of my idea of like,I don't,again,I'm not really calling those fasting,but just making sure that you're not eating things,not snacking,you're not snacking throughout the whole day.Um,and then,and again,you know,there are many exceptions to this rule because there are people who need to get in more calories and so that,that's not what we're talking about here.Um,but yeah,definitely between the end of your last meal of the day.And then,you know,when you have breakfast,

Tina: 32:03

which is literally breaking a fast.It's breakfast break fast.So is the word.So I think,there you go.That's how you're gonna remember to do it,

Leah: 32:14

Yeah.13hours is that's,that's the sweet spot.

Tina: 32:21

It is.And so,you know.I know you do that.I do it as well,just as a matter of course.I have seen in people that don't have a history of cancer,even it seems to normalize other endocrine systems,which I think is fascinating.So I've seen thyroid function improve when people do a13hour overnight fast.So that means if you eat dinner by six o'clock,you don't eat breakfast until seven the next morning.I think for a lot of people who have normal blood sugar and don't have any blood sugar issues,hypoglycemia or diabetes or whatever,this is not difficult.if you have blood sugar issues,you have to work on that.Try to figure out ways to normalize that and manage it so that you can get to this point.in any case,the reason we say13hours for breast cancer specifically is because we have data on that.there was a publication a few years ago now that showed that women with a history of breast cancer who did go13hours overnight without eating,had less recurrence.And this was observation.It wasn't a interventional study where they said,this group is going to fasten,this group is going to eat.They didn't do that.They just looked back at it and retrospect and saw that women who went13hours or more without eating had less recurrence.And so it's kind of,since that study,it's been something that we put under the why not column,why not do this if there's no reason.Yeah.

Leah: 33:41

doable.And I think many people do it without even realizing it.

Tina: 33:45

Mm-hmm.Yes.Yeah.So if you're already almost there or it's not that hard to do,then yeah,certainly just nudge your breakfast or your dinner in the right direction and make it13hours.I mean,then the nice thing about this is if you do have an engagement and you go out to dinner and you don't get done until seven30,well just look at your watch,take a mental note,and the next morning have breakfast until eight30.

Leah: 34:09

And so there's some days where I don't do my13hours because,you know,I'm,I eat late and then I'm gonna have patience and I don't want my stomach growling.And so,you know,I'll have my breakfast before8:00AM And so,I mean,there are days where I'm just like,this just didn't work.

Tina: 34:25

Mm-hmm.

Leah: 34:26

But it's just,I mean,that's just the way it is.And then there are days where you kind of get caught up in your,your morning and you're like,oh my gosh,I haven't eaten anything because my stomach was growling when I was talking to that person.And,um,yeah.So then there are days when I ac I accidentally do15.Hours or16hours,but it's never,it's not intentional.I tried to intentionally do16hours and I did not do well.I did not like the way I felt.It did not make me feel good at all.So I'm happy with my13hour sweet spot.So yeah,so that's,that's the time restricted eating,which is a form of intermittent fasting.and there are other types of,of intermittent fasting.There's like the five two,so you eat for five days and then there are two days of either locale or,or NoCal.

Tina: 35:13

Mm-hmm.

Leah: 35:14

Right.I'm not really familiar with all of these different,um,kinds.There's alternate day fasting,um,which is probably what it sounds like.fasting on alternate days.Um,yeah.

Tina: 35:28

I think a lot of those are touted for weight loss though,right.

Leah: 35:31

Mm-hmm.Yeah.Yeah,

Tina: 35:34

Yeah.The reason I,I like the,the daily,overnight fast is I feel like it's a physiological normal,right?Where I think the other ones are pushing us a little differently.You know,they're not,it's not normal for us now to,to do it that way,to do uh,a five two,Cuz I'm always about trying to push people back to a,the optimal function of the system itself.And since we're made to have a24hour circadian rhythm,it feels more normal to say,okay,you go without calories overnight at the same time that there's darkness.And that is a normal biological situation to put our bodies through every day.And I know that that's in keeping with other systems,not just your endocrine system,but also these clock genes that turn on and off according to our.day and night cycle in our fasting and feeding cycle.So it,it feels like you're instituting a normal rhythm and it feels more naturopathic to me to be doing that to people than putting them through the rigors of,a five,two or other more extreme diet.

Leah: 36:33

Yeah.And what somebody eats during their non-fasting period would matter too.

Tina: 36:39

Yes.

Leah: 36:40

just don't go on the old Oreo binge.

Tina: 36:42

I don't even think that would feel that great.the better you eat,the more you're in tune with how your body feels when you eat good food

Leah: 36:47

And the better you eat,the less you're gonna have like a sugar crash or something that's gonna just completely mess up the whole,kind of idea behind it.

Tina: 36:55

mm.Mm-hmm.Yeah.So it,it,it is an interesting phenomenon and I've been told this by patients over the years.You know,the folks who used to go through drive-throughs and get their fast food didn't really notice that it made them feel bad.Honestly,they didn't notice because they were always feeling the same day in and day out.But when they clean up their diet for many months and then go through a drive-through,it's a very different reaction on their part of their GI tract and their sense of wellbeing,and maybe even their pain states the next day.And yeah,

Leah: 37:25

Yeah,it tastes good Going down that in and out.Burger tastes real good with the fries when going down,and then later you're like,Ooh,maybe that wasn't the best

Tina: 37:35

Right,

Leah: 37:35

not gonna do it again for another so many months.And so,

Tina: 37:38

right.

Leah: 37:39

you know,live life,

Tina: 37:43

Uh,and so back to this,this nightly fasting,and then we're gonna go move on to fasting,mimicking diets,the nightly fasting and the deprivation of all of those calories.You've got no carbs,no fats,and no protein for13hours or so overnight.It sends a signals to your body,and those signals are helpful to normalize your function on a day-to-day.Your hormones,your genes,you know,your systems are made for this.So I can't encourage people enough.I don't care whether they've had cancer or not.it's probably one of the simplest things you can do,and it's free,so that helps It's easy to institute.

Leah: 38:20

Um,and again,you know,like you and I are sticking around this whole13hour thing,there are more extreme versions.The16,the18,you know,there are people who do20and24hour fests.I start to see cortisol issues in some people,especially women.and so it's not something that especially,you know,that you have to think if you are during treatment,then there are people who are taking steroids and all of that kind of stuff.So it all kind of gets a little,um,a little wonky.

Tina: 38:50

you mean If they fast too long,

Leah: 38:52

too long.Yeah.

Tina: 38:54

then their cortisol has to shoot up to keep them vertical

Leah: 38:57

Yeah.

Tina: 38:59

I mean,you've got two choices.You can either go pass out or you can,you know,have your cortisol jump up and keep your blood sugar going

Leah: 39:05

Right,

Tina: 39:05

and that's,that's not a healthy state to have your cortisol jump

Leah: 39:08

right.Especially,you know,if it happens at night and you're trying to sleep.So yes,I don't,I don't go for those extreme times.

Tina: 39:17

Mm-hmm.Yeah.And we didn't really talk about this in this episode,um,too much,but what we're talking about is when you fast often you put your body into a state of ketosis.And so

Leah: 39:29

Well,it's depends on how long you fast,

Tina: 39:32

Right.But eventually you get into a ketosis and if for some reason you can't mobilize your glucose,your keto bodies have to kick in.Your,your body will make keto bodies so that you can keep functioning.

Leah: 39:46

but that's not,that doesn't happen with a13hour fast.

Tina: 39:50

You're right on the edge of it at13hours.Yeah.So if you got up and did a sample and sent it to the lab,there'll probably be some ketones circulating,but you're not,you're not functioning a hundred percent on ketones.You're

Leah: 40:00

Right.Yeah,no,you're not in ketosis,which is one of the things that,um,fasting mimicking diet talks about.Your body goes into a state of ketosis,so that's a good transition to that type of diet.And the most popular fasting mimicking diet is ProLon,which is a pre-packaged,five day fasting mimicking diet where you have a thousand something calories the first day,and then for the next four days you have,um,a more limited diet,less than800calories.And it's a super specific composition of the,the macronutrients,you know,your,your carbs,your fat protein.It's all very specific.Um,and that was something that I was doing.I haven't done it in forever because I purchased a whole bunch of them.It was before that,I think it was before they started storing them.And then they'd ship'em to you as you need them.And so mine all,a bunch of mine went bad.They're old

Tina: 40:59

You mean they're past their date?

Leah: 41:01

their date.And I was like,ah,that doesn't matter.But no,they were actually like,some of the things tasted rancid and so I just kind of got rid of them because yeah,that kind of felt like it was defeating

Tina: 41:12

yeah.Well,I like,I think the good news is that it does go rancid,which means that it was nutritious.

Leah: 41:18

the,the expiration date actually applies.It's not a Twinkie,it's not gonna This is not my in case of nuclear fallout,like go to my stored up ProLon.But I did learn a lesson that the next time I order them,just order what I need and then they will ship them.You can buy,you could pre-buy them and then they kind of keep them in their,their prolonged cloud and then they'll,they'll download them to you as you need them.But it is nice and there are lots of people who have come up with hacks.Um,you know,online.And I think the ease of it being pre-packaged right there,and then you get your little,um,your glycerol drink they got for you.I mean,they got everything.It's a little wasteful that you get a plastic bottle that every single one gives you a plastic bottle.I mean,there's a lot of waste,but other than,other than,uh,you know,destroying the planet.Um,

Tina: 42:14

we're good.

Leah: 42:15

idea.Oh my God,I can't believe I just said that.That's what happens when you record this late loose lips.

Tina: 42:21

Well,the,the fasting mimicking diet that Walter Longo,that I referenced early on in the episode,um,Volter Longo came up with that in his group,I should say,came up with that because their first clinical trial in humans undergoing chemotherapy,where they tried to fast,tried to have the participants fast,um,and actually go without food,met with very poor compliance.So this was,gosh,I bet it was like2010or so.He said it was really.To get people to not eat.And so he came up with this,which removes specific amino acids So it's intentionally low in certain amino acids.It's low in it's v,

Leah: 43:03

so there's,yeah,it's low protein.

Tina: 43:06

it keeps,it's very low in glucose and it's very specific with fatty acids as well.So,yeah,I just thought it was interesting evolution to create the fasting mimicking diet because fasting itself was just not something that he could get people to do well enough to get the clinical trial data he was looking to get.

Leah: 43:25

and they're still not saying that you can do this during treatment.And the last time I looked,they were coming up with their own special package for people who were going through treatment.So,um,but I don't believe that anything that they market with ProLon it,well now they're doing it all like it's,um,it's a keto diet or something.I don't know the,I don't know what their marketing's doing,but yeah,they're,it's not something that is necessarily,that they're promoting to do during chemotherapy or any sort of cancer treatment,but it is,um,something that could be beneficial to some people once they have completed treatment.

Tina: 44:03

Yeah,and,and you know,my take on this is,Because we all harp on the idea and it's out there for decades.Sugar feeds cancer,you know that hog And that's because when we look at cellular metabolism,you can see that they can chew up glucose,which is our sugar in our bloodstream.They use that as a fuel source.Um,but it's much more complicated than that.It's also amino acids can also take up glutamine readily,and methionine is used and other amino acids are used,um,and fatty acids cuz the structure of the cells are fatty.Acids is the fatty acid membrane around the outside.And so there's certain fatty acids that the cancer cells can use both for structure and for fuel.So it's much more complicated than just controlling blood sugar and saying,if I keep my glucose low,then I'm I'm not feeding the cancer.it depends on the cancer type.Um,if there's cancer in someone's body,it depends on the cancer type and it,the subtypes and those characteristics of that particular person's cancer,what they're using for fuel.So I'm just gonna put that out there cuz I think that it's oversimplified out there in our oncology land

Leah: 45:09

so,you're more familiar with the studies that are out there.Am I correct in thinking that there was greater benefit in patients with triple negative breast cancer with fasting,

Tina: 45:24

Yes.Because

Leah: 45:26

during treatment or was that after?

Tina: 45:28

I don't remember if it was during treatment or after,to be honest.

Leah: 45:32

let's look that,we'll look it up

Tina: 45:33

Yeah,the benefit for triple negative specifically is because in triple negative fatty acids are one of the fuel sources.And so we know that with triple negative breast cancer,um,it can be driven by fatty acids.Um,that's true of prostate cancer too,and probably some other cancers that are less well-studied.I have,I'll send you the link.I have,I have it in our show notes.The triple negative one.

Leah: 45:59

the,the triple negative study.Okay.If people are interested.And,um,we're,we've got another form of fasting to talk about as well,but,um,if people are interested in fasting during their treatment,you can always look on clinical trials.gov because I believe there are a number of clinical trials out there right now,um,investigating fasting and different types of cancer.So that's,that's my research plug.

Tina: 46:24

All right.Clinical

Leah: 46:25

now we return clinical trials.gov.Yep.There's actually,I don't know if it's still going,if it's

Tina: 46:32

Oh,I actually posted on a trial that's going on right now that is being done for pancreatic cancer and colorectal cancer,specifically people going through treatment for those two types of cancer.It provides the meals for the,the participants and it is,um,a deprivation or a lowering of certain amino acids in the diet.So it's probably the amino acids that are most likely to be used by the cancer cells.Glutamine,sine glycine,maybe arginine,not sure if they did methionine,but in any case,whatever the amino acids are that they removed from the diet,it's done by a company called Faith Therapeutics,F A E T H,faith Therapeutics.And it's,uh,just started recently.Um,

Leah: 47:19

How do

Tina: 47:20

nice.

Leah: 47:20

meals to you?Is it like they ship'em to you or do you have to be at the certain centers,I guess you know,somebody go online and figure it

Tina: 47:26

Yeah,

Leah: 47:28

go figure it

Tina: 47:29

if you,if you go to clinical trials.gov,um,you'll see it there.I pinned it to the top of my Twitter page too.just cuz I thought it was kind of a cool study to provide the meals for people because,you know,I've been doing something akin to,you know,protein deprivation with people for a long time,um,for various types of cancer,whether it's during treatment or afterwards or we're just trying to control disease processes and people who have an ongoing cancer.But it's hard,you know,because culturally food is intertwined it would be great because you can see if that works and then we can do that with people.Make people's life simpler cuz it,I always feel a little bit badly talking about restriction of any kind when it comes to food.cuz food is pleasure and fun and

Leah: 48:09

And that was something I kind of liked.I mean,I enjoyed.Doing ProLon,you know,you get your little chocolate bar and then I love the,the fast bar in the morning cuz it's almonds and honey.So,I mean,not everyone can have it cuz not everyone can have nuts or,you know,there's a lot of foods in there that,um,people might not tolerate just to start.

Tina: 48:33

mm-hmm.

Leah: 48:33

um,the soups weren't all that flavorful.Some of them,the tomato soup I liked,

Tina: 48:37

Yeah,

Leah: 48:38

which,yeah,I know some people can't tolerate that.

Tina: 48:41

I know.We live,we live in this naturopathic world where,you know,if you say a food,we probably know someone who's given up that one.Food,somebody else.Yep.I know somebody.Garlic.

Leah: 48:50

dinner parties with naturopathic doctors are really interesting.You send out that email.Okay.Who's got what?Food restrictions.Like,I,it's just so automatic to me.Like I know people's food,you know,food issues or restrictions and so when I bring something to a potluck or whatever,I'm.try to be hyper aware of making it like,as like inclusive as possible.So yes.Um,the pro prolong diet,fasting mimicking diet is not necessarily like incredibly inclusive,but if people tolerate

Tina: 49:21

the other folks who can't do it are people who avoid histamines.

Leah: 49:25

right,

Tina: 49:26

pretty histamine rich diet.

Leah: 49:27

there was one that was a lower histamine one,which I actually liked.I think it was a low histamine,the one that I,that there was a version.Um,and they got rid of that.So I don't think it was very popular,but I liked it.And that's the one that I stockpiled on and now that's the one that's all gone bad.So there you go.That's my story.Um,okay,so the last form of fasting that I think about is water fasting.And I really don't know that much about it.I know that,there's a doctor that I follow that we follow the cancer pod follows on,Instagram,who.had stopped treatment for whatever reason and went to True North,which is where it's a clinic where they do water fasting,supervised water fasting.Um,the first thing that I tell anyone who brings up water fasting to me is like,do not do water fasting if it's not supervised at a clinic,you know,by doctors.Like,it's not something I think that somebody going through cancer treatment or even No,even beyond.I just,I just don't think it's,it's necessarily safe if you don't know what you're doing.

Tina: 50:34

Oh,I thought for sure you were gonna say Willynilly in there Some.

Leah: 50:37

I did not do willy-nilly.I don't

Tina: 50:39

Yeah.

Leah: 50:39

it's

Tina: 50:39

I'll,

Leah: 50:40

Willy-nilly is an early word for me.

Tina: 50:41

for you.

Leah: 50:42

Okay.

Tina: 50:43

don't want people to be going out there doing this water fasting willy-nilly,

Leah: 50:46

I mean,if you're,you know,if you're,if it's Yum Kippur,can you have water?I don't think you could even have water.Never.

Tina: 50:54

Oh,

Leah: 50:54

don't think if you do religious fasting,you can have any water.I think I read with Ramadan,you can't even have one sip of water.So nevermind what I was about to say.I was gonna say,if you're fasting for religious reasons,then have your water,but I don't think you're allowed to.So ignore me sitting in the corner.But um,yeah,so again,I'm not familiar with what TrueNorth does,but that's kind of,that's their.

Tina: 51:16

Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.Well,there was a,and I know you know this,that pretty,I'm gonna call it famous,at least in our circles and naturopathic oncology circles.There was a case out of True North,they published a case of somebody with stage three lymphoma who went there after being treated,um,with some convent.Therapies and just didn't feel well and just said,that's it.I'm gonna take a break.I'm going to this place called True North and Northern California.Went there,did water fasting.the,the medical oversight there is pretty strict.I mean,she's getting blood work done.She's gonna see them constantly.Um,long story short,she had regression of her disease process and it was lymphoma specifically.So I wanna qualify it with that.I don't expect this to be with a lot of other types of cancer.lymphoma is more prone to regressions and what they call in the medical literature,spontaneous regressions more so than other cancers.Um,and I have a story of a patient who had a regression of her lymphoma and when her medical oncologist used the words spontaneous regression,she pretty much ripped him a new one.Cuz she said,this is not spontaneous.I worked really hard for this to happen.you know,she was an artist and she did a lot of work in various areas.Um,which I won't go into in this episode cause we're talking about fasting,but know that lymphoma in general is more likely to regress than a lot of other cancers.So I'm not writing off this water fast regression.I'm just saying it may not translate to any other cancer.

Leah: 52:45

So are you familiar with what all,like how long these fasts,are you familiar with any of the true North

Tina: 52:51

Oh,it was long enough that this person lost considerable amount of weight.I don't remember.I read the case too,but it's been a little while.but she went way down,um,in her b m i down to,down to18,19,pretty darn low.Um,of course they stop it then,and Bring foods back in.But yeah,I,um,have I shared with you,there was that one paper from the1980s that showed with,uh,a certain type of lymphoma called endo follicular lymphoma.there was a25%spontaneous regression rate.

Leah: 53:24

just on its own?

Tina: 53:25

Mm-hmm.Yeah.Cuz with the1980s.So we didn't have the tools we have now.We didn't have Rituxan.which we treat indolent lymphomas with Rituxan now,which is a monoclonal antibody.But at the time we didn't have that drug.And so what they did with indent lymphoma was they waited,they watched,and so watchful waiting until it got so bad that they needed a chemotherapy,was the course of treatment.Um,and during that watchful waiting time,uh,one and four would regress.

Leah: 53:52

Yeah,there's still are lymphomas where they do,

Tina: 53:54

Mm.Yes.Well,and just so people know that I'm not like reaching in some corner of the internet to find this study.This was in the New England Journal of Medicine.This wasn't like some crackpot study out of,I don't know where it was.It was New England Journal of Medicine.So I feel pretty confident that it was a decent study at the time.I mean,the time I was only13,so I don't know.

Leah: 54:16

You weren't quite practicing at the time.So yeah,water fasting is the most extreme.Um,that definitely needs medical supervision if someone is to consider it.But,obviously from what you're saying,there's an incredible risk of weight loss and so that needs to be taken into account,as you said earlier,in terms of there are certain cancers where,sarcopenia is,is a huge concern.So,um,how are,how are we concluding this?I mean,you know,talk to,talk to your dietician about fasting.There are many oncology dieticians,I'm not gonna say many.There were several who came after me for even like mentioning that I had done it.Um,both attacking me as well as my oncologist.And it's like,oh no,do not attack my oncologist at the time.I mean,he.He was a,he,he is a bit,um,ahead of his,his time and I didn't mind,um,his recommendation for fasting and I didn't feel like I was at,put at risk.So yeah,

Tina: 55:21

Well,I wanna flip the coin and just say the one thing we can say across the board is excessive calories are generally not a good thing unless you're intentionally trying to bring back weight that you have lost over treatment time,or you are not absorbing your calories,so you have to put more in your mouth just to get them into your bloodstream.Um,excessive caloric intake is generally contraindicated,so I could say that if you flip the fasting coin to the other side completely.

Leah: 55:48

Yeah.And there are patients,women,um,who have said to me they have early stage breast cancer,and they're like,yeah,I was just told,eat as much as you can cuz you're,you know,you might lose weight during treatment.And I was like,who?Very few people that I know of have had issues.I mean,yes,people have issues with nausea and vomiting and all of that with,you know,br treatment for breast cancer.But I haven't seen,I don't know,I don't wanna generalize.I just think that telling someone from the beginning to start packing on the calories,um,and not providing them with an exercise regimen,

Tina: 56:25

right?

Leah: 56:26

know,like,pack on the calories fine,but I want you moving and lifting heavy weights too,you know,just don't like sit around eating your bond bonds.

Tina: 56:36

yeah.Give them somewhere to go

Leah: 56:38

Yes.Put your,Put your,bonds to good use.Um,yeah,I don't know.We might take some flack for this episode,but we're not recommending anybody due fast.Um,and if somebody does consider fasting,then find somebody to work with who actually knows what they're talking about,not just somebody who is signed up as a health coach and did an online program,like somebody who actually has a lot of training and knowledge of this.Cuz there are dieticians,registered dieticians who do work specifically with cancer patients and fasting.So,

Tina: 57:13

Yeah.I guess the only other one thing I wanted to put out there was,um,especially in the United States,we tend on average to eat more protein than we actually need.and this could also be adding to our fueling various cancers so we have too much sugar.Yes.Too many calories.Too much sugar,too much protein.And there was a protein restriction.Researched.Seems to suggest that by having adequate but not more than adequate protein,we probably would have better immune function.So I'm just putting that out there too as a,not as advice,but as a factoid that we gotta keep in mind.Cuz I think especially if you're an omnivores,you eat meat and vegetables,um,keep the portion low.You don't wanna do a bam bam portions of meat.

Leah: 57:57

Right.None of the16ounce.Steak and

Tina: 58:01

You gotta split that16.

Leah: 58:02

oh,you could see that that's four servings,right?Four ounces is a,is a serving of meat.Um,yeah.And again,we're not talking about fasting for,for weight management.I was looking something up and I actually came across that,portion control is better than fasting for,weight management.So that goes to your bam,BAAM steak theory about,you know,portion control is huge.It's,and it is huge in America.It's very huge.portions are very huge in America.Um,but yeah,portion control is like kind of where you wanna go if you're thinking of weight management.So,but that's a whole different episode.

Tina: 58:40

Yes it is.

Leah: 58:41

So Tina,is there anything that you have,because you do more stuff than I do,um,are there any talks that you're giving or any articles that are coming out that you wanna promote?

Tina: 58:54

Well on this topic,I wrote on the topic of how cancer must have methionine one of our essential amino acids,um,for growth.And normal cells really can survive without methionine and cancer cells cannot.And so there is some interesting work going on out there about methyine restriction and is that a feasible strategy,alongside conventional care or as a standalone for some cancers out there?So look that up.That was in Natural Medicine Journal,which um,

Leah: 59:27

put a link,

Tina: 59:28

yep.

Leah: 59:29

we'll,we'll link to it in the show notes

Tina: 59:31

All right,let's link to that.It's a few years old,so uh,I probably should update that sometime soon,but,uh,yeah,it's pretty complete.Gives you the premise of the idea anyways.

Leah: 59:39

So if you wanna have words with either of us about what we've talked about today,you can send us an email,send us a letter at the cancer pod gmail.com.Follow us on Instagram,Facebook,Twitter,it's everything is the cancer pod.

Tina: 59:58

and if you don't already follow us,hit the follow button cuz I can see a third of,uh,people that are listening to us out there don't have the follow button hit.So that little plus sign up in the right hand corner of your apple

Leah: 1:00:11

of your,apple

Tina: 1:00:12

of your Apple platform or your Spotify platform.If you could hit that plus button,that'd be awesome.

Leah: 1:00:17

Yeah,subscribe,follow,leave a comment.Leave a rating.Leave a review.

Tina: 1:00:23

Or,and if you wanna comment,like Leia said,just give us an email.Shoot us an email,we'll take a look at it and,uh,maybe we'll talk about whatever you would like to talk about on our show.

Leah: 1:00:32

So on that note,I'm Dr.Leia Sherman,

Tina: 1:00:34

And I'm Dr.Tina Kaser

Leah: 1:00:36

and this is the Cancer.

Tina: 1:00:37

until next time.

1:00:38

Thanks for listening to the cancer pod.Remember to subscribe,review and rate us wherever you get your podcasts.Follow us on social media for updates,and as always,this is not medical advice.These are our opinions.Talk to your doctor before changing anything related to your treatment plan.The cancer pod is hosted by me,Dr.Lea Sherman.And by Dr.Tina Caer music is by Kevin McLeod.See you next time.