Interview with Charlotte Bayala of The Cancer Caregiver Podcast

Interview with Charlotte Bayala

[00:00:00] Leah: I think the first step is to understand you deserve help, you need to shift that, mindset. You are not meant to do this on your own. You shouldn't be doing it on your own. you also have to be okay with people not showing up for you that you expect it to show up. 

[00:00:20] Tina: I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the science-y one

[00:00:24] Leah: and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside

[00:00:27] Tina: And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care 

[00:00:32] Leah: But we're not your doctors

[00:00:34] Tina: This is for education entertainment and informational purposes only

[00:00:38] Leah: do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor

[00:00:43] Tina: The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own

[00:00:49] Leah: Welcome to the cancer pod ​

[00:00:57] Leah Sherman: What if caregiving for someone with cancer didn't mean losing yourself in the process? Today I am joined by Charlotte Bayala, host of the award-winning the Cancer Caregiver podcast. 

Charlotte is a powerful voice turning the often unseen work of caregiving into real, practical support. Her show blends emotional honesty with actionable strategies, helping thousands of caregivers feel seen, set boundaries, breathe easier, and care for themselves while caring for someone with cancer care.

Welcome Charlotte

[00:01:29] Charlotte Bayala: Thank you so much for having me on here. I appreciate it.

[00:01:33] Leah Sherman: I am really excited that we were able to connect. I think that, having a show from the caregiver perspective is really important because that is one of the target audiences for us. we want caregivers to be able to find tips to help support, their loved ones. But we haven't really touched on caregivers giving themselves support, and you are the perfect guest for that.

[00:02:03] Charlotte Bayala: Thank you. Yeah, it's hard you can't do everything all the time, so I love that, you know, a lot of us are able to collaborate and work together and share, you know, having someone on to speak to caregivers. Is important, and I love it when cancer organizations and cancer podcasts are open to seeing that because sometimes it's, it's hard to get the message across.

So I'm really happy to be able to be here today.

[00:02:32] Leah Sherman: What was your driving need to have this podcast and to have this conversation?

[00:02:37] Charlotte Bayala: Yeah, it was because I, I needed. Something for myself, especially when I first became a caregiver. Um, I care for my husband who has cancer. We've been doing this now for close to 13 years, so over a decade. And I started, the first show, which was actually Love your Caregiving Life. When I felt like I could. I could give, right? And then what I wanted to give was what I needed. So, and what I didn't realize at the beginning was, the podcast was what I still needed because as I was writing and, and recording, I found myself processing in ways that I didn't realize I needed to. cancer got a little bit more difficult and that's when I, switched over to cancer specific, caregiver content. And that's when I created the Cancer Caregiver podcast because again, I was looking for something that I needed to hear. I needed to see myself in something else. I needed to hear that what I was going through, um, was. What other people were going through, and I couldn't really find that. And so I made it.

And so the whole purpose is to let cancer caregivers know that all the things that they're thinking of, they're going through, they're experiencing, They're all very private and they're all particular to their own circumstances, but they're all very similar to what everyone else is going through. since we don't share because we're worried about being judged or what other people say, or we just simply don't have the time or the energy to talk about it with anyone, we're not seeing we can support each other by sharing our experiences. Because we can name and, and talk about those things. it takes a lot of the power out of it. So that's why I created it. I wanted to use my caregiving experience, plus also my over a decades experience of being a yoga and meditation teacher to first name what we're going through, and then give a tool that they can use to help themselves through it. 

[00:04:50] Leah Sherman: And 

for myself as someone who has been on both sides, as both the cancer patient and the cancer caregiver. And again, this is my take on it. I found being a caregiver to be so much harder

[00:05:04] Charlotte Bayala: Mm.

[00:05:05] Leah Sherman: than being a patient, because there's that, again, for me, there's that sense of helplessness.

[00:05:12] Charlotte Bayala: Yeah.

[00:05:13] Leah Sherman: Like for, for myself, I just had to get through it.

I just had to get through treatment, you know? And when I was taking care of my mother, I mean, there's that dynamic in the first place. Being the child and taking care of your parent.

[00:05:26] Charlotte Bayala: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:27] Leah Sherman: there, there was so much I couldn't control. Not that I could control things for myself, but with my mother, it was a lot.

It is so difficult. Um, and there's all these emotional layers and so, um, yeah. I wish that I knew about your podcast back then because

[00:05:45] Charlotte Bayala: you.

[00:05:46] Leah Sherman: for anyone who has not listened. Is a wonderful podcast. They're these short 15 minute episodes, and so it's easily digestible. It's easy to fit into your busy day, um, on your drive or you know, before bed.

And as you can tell, Charlotte's voice is just so soothing. It's really wonderful. I just, yeah, I think it would've been something that would've been a really helpful tool because of that, because I found that. Sense of helplessness and, and not finding time to take care of me because I was so busy taking care of her.

[00:06:25] Charlotte Bayala: Yeah. And, we all that, that is not uncommon. And so I find that a lot of times caregivers that I speak to say the same thing, but with a little bit of regret and a lot of guilt they even thought that deserve to be able to care for themselves, but just didn't get to do it. Right.

And so there's a lot of emotions and a lot of. mis miscommunicated role. Um. Messages that we get when we become caregivers that, you know, people continue to throw at us that aren't fair. And then it makes it harder for us to care for ourselves in the first place. Like we're supposed to be selfless and we're supposed to keep going until we completely break down because. And it's not something that someone will come up to you and say, oh, guess what? You're a caregiver starting today, and we expect you to completely live your life without contenting to any of the things that you need, and you're meant to not find happiness ever again, because now you're only focus is to be a caregiver.

No one comes out and says that, but it's in the actions. in the expectations, it's in the. How when you're caring for someone, everyone checks in with how that person is doing instead of how you are. in the people not showing up to help without asking you what you need. Just coming in and, and doing things for you, and so. That's why it's hard. And then I think that, you know, once you show up somewhere and you are looking like crap, someone will oftentimes tell you, oh, you know what? You should really care for yourself you're left with, well, what does that mean? What, how does that, where do you think I'm going to find the time to actually figure out how to care for myself and then actually do it instead of just, you know, seeing a, a loved one or a friend showing up to their house the next day and like. Just come with coffee and say, look, I'm gonna be here. You have this much time. Do something for yourself. Go take a bath. Go take a nap. Go take a walk, leave and yell in your car. Like whatever it is that you need to do to just take a moment for yourself. That's what I'm here for. And so when you don't get those messages, by the way people interact with you, when you become a caregiver, then it makes it really hard for you to find the time to care for yourself. And the problem is then you lose time with the person that you give up everything to help, right? So you don't get those moments where you can just relax with them and enjoy them. you are so focused on all the things that you have to do, and you're trying to keep up with everything that hasn't been done, and it becomes so overwhelming that you miss those tiny moments that are the things you have left when your caregiving role is done.

[00:09:25] Leah Sherman: So do you have any tips on how someone who is a caregiver can. Can ask for help. I mean, 'cause I think that that's the hard part. It's like, no, no, no. I've got this, I've got this. You know, it's, it's very similar in that way to being a cancer patient where you're like, just, no, I've got this, I've got this under control.

Um, but yeah. Any sort of recommendations that you have for somebody who's not used to asking for help to ask for help.

[00:09:55] Charlotte Bayala: what makes it hard is to ha help people ask for help who don't like asking for help. That's the hard part. I think the first step is to understand you deserve help, right? you need to shift that, mindset. You are not meant to do this on your own. You shouldn't be doing it on your own. you also have to be okay with people not showing up for you that you expect it to show up. so when I'm usually helping caregivers figure out how to create a team or at least find one person to help them do something, it's people do you have in your life. That you think will help, and what are they good at? Because if you ask your best friend who loves to bake and cook come and help mow your lawn every Saturday for the rest of the summer, friend might not show up because. First of all, they don't know how to use a lawnmower and they hate being out in the sun. You know, so you have to really play to a person's strengths. Unfortunately, you know, we can't just say, um, you know, I need help with yard work. Can, can anyone come do this for me? Right. So. If you aren't a person who has an organized way to have people see what you need help with, then what I always suggest is find that person that is good at what you need right now. So let's say loved one is not having a, a really comfortable time with their illness. If they have cancer, you maybe have a a point of time coming up where have a surgery and. You normally try to hold it together without trying to fall apart, which is generally not a good juggling act to have in the first place. So think about the things that you need. You need meals, especially when you get home. You need someone to help with your child. If you have a young child that needs, you know, extra attention because this is also a, a stressful time for them, you do need chores around the house done or things to upkeep.

So. Think about the things that you can actually let go of, which is also hard for us because we don't want to release any control that we actually have over anything and be okay with it not being perfect. Everything has to be good enough when you have to pull back from the things that you normally are in charge of, because caregiving has to be 90%. Of what you're doing right now, then find those people, reach out to an office team or to friends and say, look, I don't wanna deal with like the crappy freezer meals that my freezer's still full of. Right. You know what? If you wanna help, how about if everyone pulls in to, Put together a gift card for ordering out, and I can do that. Or you have someone that loves organizing things. Give them a list of things that you need help with and ask them to help organize. So it, it takes a little bit of extra work because we're not used, especially if you're not used to having people help you or you don't normally have people, who just naturally reach out and help. And. think the problem is we don't wanna put people out, right? The problem is, is that people wanna help. If you think about it, when you help someone if, if even when you're leaving a store, you smile at a stranger, you get this feeling of fulfillment. Even if it's for a fleeting second, it makes you feel good to help somebody, right? Think of it this way. If you don't ask someone in your life that genuinely cares about you to help you, then you are denying them the opportunity to have that feeling right. if you don't ask for help. There have been studies that show people stop help after a while, and that usually is at the same time where we're finally deciding that we understand what we actually can help with.

[00:14:10] Leah Sherman: Right.

[00:14:11] Charlotte Bayala: So you have all these people asking you, what can I do? What can I do? You're like, I have no idea. And then you wake up one morning, you're like, oh man. The next time someone asks me if I need help, I'm gonna ask them to help me with this. And everyone has. Spontaneously stopped asking. It's because they are assuming, since you've already said no, I'm okay. Which we know is pretty much a boldface lie. You will ask them. They're waiting for you to ask because they don't want to feel like they're imposing, that they're being too pushy. By continually asking you if you keep saying, no, I really don't know what I would need help with. that's not to say that there isn't some ownership that they need to be taking for just showing up and helping, right, because. When you put it on another person and ask them, let me know how I can help. You're just creating more work for them. that's not fair for caregivers, for someone listening who knows a caregiver, there are some very, general things that all caregivers need help with. Do the thing that you can do for them. so it's, it's not an easy, it's not an easy task, but. It's essential because if you want to be the type of caregiver you would like to be, to be attentive, to not be a person that's reactionary because you're overwhelmed. To actually be able to notice when the person that you care for takes the moment to smile or like chuckles for a second, or has like a lighthearted moment, you wanna be present for that. If your head isn't here, it's off in the to-dos and the things that have happened and that haven't happened yet, then you're gonna miss all those things. So there's a lot of reasons why you just have to find the one reason why that's compelling enough for you to get into that stage of being uncomfortable, to be able to ask someone to help them.

[00:16:10] Leah Sherman: there's something that you said in one of your episodes that really, um. I don't, I, I wrote it down so it really resonated with me. no one cares if you care for yourself.

[00:16:21] Charlotte Bayala: Yeah.

[00:16:22] Leah Sherman: That's harsh,

[00:16:23] Charlotte Bayala: Yeah. Yeah, it's, and it's real because if anyone cared, if you cared for yourself, then we wouldn't be talking about caregivers caring for themselves, Because everyone that is a caregiver, the what? What are we up to now? Over 65 million caregivers in the United States alone. I, if we all. Had societal, frameworks put in place for us to care for ourselves, we wouldn't be trying to figure it out still. Right? There are ways that we can be given the buffer and the opening to have the freedom to say, I, I need to take a vacation. Just me. I need an hour. Away from the house. I need this. I need to do this constantly.

I need to do this occasionally. we don't ask for it because we feel like we can't. And that means a message that we're getting is that you're supposed to just figure it out on your own. and people don't really care until you need care. Right. So everyone's just assuming you have it all put together, because that's kind of the mask that we put on. That's what happens when we say we don't need help or, yes, I'm okay. Um, so until you need help yourself, people really aren't gonna care. No one's gonna make the time for you. never gonna be the, the perfect moment to take time for yourself. You know, oftentimes we say, I'll wait until after the next oncology appointment. I'll wait until after their treatment. I'll wait until things get better. There's always gonna be something else. So. People don't really care. If you care for yourself, the person that really matters to care for that is you. And until we can come to a place personally where we can own that and stop waiting for other people to make space for us to do it is when things for us as caregivers will get a lot better.

[00:18:25] Leah Sherman: So with my experience of working in cancer centers, um, we've had mind body counselors who offered their services to caregivers to talk. Is this something only because I only have a, a limited view of what happens in cancer centers. Is this something that is. Common that there are people at the cancer center to, um, to speak with about, you know, their, their loved one.

I mean, is this

[00:18:54] Charlotte Bayala: I don't, I have not found that to be

[00:18:57] Leah Sherman: okay?

[00:18:57] Charlotte Bayala: for, for my experience. And we have moved around a lot since my husband was first diagnosed, and once have, I've been offered an appointment with even a social worker. I have had to advocate at one point. For my husband. And that brought on a phone call with a social worker, which then offered, you know, different, different support services, but for the cancer patient. I don't think that there are a lot of places, like if you are currently in a place where your loved one is being treated and you also have support services, like that's a unicorn in the whole system. And we've gone to really big important cancer centers. is a, a changing tide in that thought. Um, there's a lot of different people who are working towards having more services for caregivers, but is not normal. maybe I, if I were having a really difficult time as a caregiver and I maybe inserted myself into a conversation with an oncologist for my husband, they might. relayed that information to a nurse who maybe would, you know, like it's not freely given and you have to, I would say in the places that I've been that have had really good doctors, they're focused on treating the patient and not the person who's literally helping that patient live the other 364 days of the year. Yeah.

[00:20:35] Leah Sherman: Yeah, that's unfortunate. I think that's, um, I don't even know if there are, I, I'm assuming there are social workers available at all cancer centers.

[00:20:44] Charlotte Bayala: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:44] Leah Sherman: But I didn't realize how, um, unusual that was to actually have that, service that could be provided to actually have that conversation.

 You know, with someone who can, who kind of sees what you're going through, at least on the cancer center side.

[00:20:57] Charlotte Bayala: Exactly.

[00:20:58] Leah Sherman: Okay. I wanna rewind a little bit and talk about, um, talk about your background. So you mentioned that. You are a yoga teacher and you are certified to teach meditation as well. Um, what brought you to that and how, I guess fortuitous is that, that that actually played into, your, oh, I hate this word.

Your journey into becoming this, you know, this, this advocate for caregivers.

[00:21:29] Charlotte Bayala: Yeah. You know, yoga happened before cancer, thankfully. and actually I became a yoga student because I had been a martial arts practitioner and I tore an ACL and had to have surgery and I was looking for something that I could do movement wise and yoga was it. And I never left. And so, I. through multiple trainings.

I am a 500 hour certified yoga instructor. I've worked with a lot of, uh, teachers and have other certifications and it just was how I felt most aligned with spending my time and helping other people. and you would think that when my husband was diagnosed, that I came out of this diagnosis just like calm and relaxed and totally put together, but it literally pulled the rug out from underneath my feet and I did nothing.

I was teaching yoga and meditation classes full-time when my husband was diagnosed, the only yoga I did was when I was in those rooms with the people. Teaching them how to make it through things that I was currently going through personally. And as soon as I left those rooms, I would back into an overwhelmed caregiver close to burnout. and it's. The turnaround was, I had been under so much pressure and worry was becoming a really prob big problem for me. And I sent a message to my doctor and I said, this is, this is not normal. I shouldn't be walking around acting as if I have like a Hallmark commercial running full time in my brain.

Like I was crying at anything. And, and she said, well, you know, you're going through a lot. My first suggestion would be for you to try meditating, it was the advice that angered me the most. I was like, this person's telling me to meditate. I teach people how to meditate eight hours a day. What? What right does she have to like?

I was angry because her advice was right, because it was what I was teaching other people to do. the important part was that caregiving in cancer. Made it close to impossible for me to hold on to the things that I was already doing that I had skills on, being able to teach people and, lot of time with that being. What I did for myself completely fell apart, and that's one of the reasons why I started this, is because figured if I had all the tools and tons of experience, not only practicing meditation and yoga and just, you know, coping skills for stress and anxiety, if all of that fell apart for me. How hard is it and how ridiculous is it for someone to tell a caregiver, yeah, you should try meditating. Because how are they gonna figure out how to do that

[00:24:37] Leah Sherman: Great.

[00:24:38] Charlotte Bayala: how is that supposed to work? And honestly, meditation never was the same. I used to love hour long meditations, so many different kinds. And when I sat down to try to do the same thing that I had been doing before, never worked. It got too quiet. I had too many, like, you know, we all stuff everything down. And once it gets quiet and you're just you and a

[00:25:01] Leah Sherman: Great.

[00:25:01] Charlotte Bayala: chair. all wants to get your attention.

 I had to shift what I was doing and I had to figure out how to do that. And so to expect someone who's never done that before to figure it out on their own, I think is disrespectful. You know, people need help to figure these things out. And so, All of that experience, all of the thousands of hours of me teaching. then on top of it, my experience as a caregiver, which all of our experiences are different, but ultimately are tied into the same issues. Is what I bring to everything that I, that I provide, whether it's the podcast or if it's a workshop I'm doing, or if it's me as a speaker. It never changes it. That is the main goal is this is what I have, this is what I know, and this is what I know to be true because I've been trained in it. I'm, I just want to make sure that it's easier for a caregiver to understand how they can maybe take one thing. And bring it into their day so that they can have just these small moments for themselves.

So been, it's not like, it's not linear caregiving. I feels like grief. Like there are moments where it feels like you got it and then all of a sudden something hits you. so I think that we all need, when we're talking about caring for ourselves, we need. What we have running all the time, like our rituals, the things that, that we instinctually do, the things that we do for fun, but then also the, holy crap moments, right?

Which takes more, like there has to be a different plan for that. And so just understanding that things are always fluctuating in your, the person that you're caring for is life. Things also have to fluctuate for how you care for yourself.

[00:26:54] Leah Sherman: So how does somebody who has never meditated, never even thought about meditation, how, what is a way that you would introduce them into. A world that they would never have considered in the first place.

[00:27:10] Charlotte Bayala: Yeah, I, I would say breath, breath work.

[00:27:14] Leah Sherman: Okay.

[00:27:15] Charlotte Bayala: All of the things, I, I have some extra episodes of the podcast that is literally just guided breath work. never ask someone to sit with a mantra or an affirmation, on their own. feel like a meditation, it has to do with what your strengths are.

And if you've never done it before, how do you know what your strengths are? Right? In your mind, our minds are not attentive at all. Like we, we want every three, everything in six second

[00:27:49] Leah Sherman: Right.

[00:27:50] Charlotte Bayala: right? So I don't even do, I used to have people sit and, and work on just focusing on their breath for 15 minutes. We're down to five. I'd love it if someone could do it for a minute. Like if you actually sit after listening to this and only focus on breathing for a minute. could feel like a thousand hours. it depends on who you are. It could be painful, it could be what you needed to do. because when we stop to meditate, our minds are not trained for it, and it's not.

So, it's not about practice can I start to remember? What can I memorize? It's you have to train your brain to know, okay, oh, this is when I have to shut down. Just for a little bit because as soon as it gets quiet, your mind goes crazy

[00:28:42] Leah Sherman: Yeah.

[00:28:43] Charlotte Bayala: just take over. Your brain wants to work on stuff. so I start off people with literally just a deep breathing, a belly breath.

 sometimes people counting. It works better. So we'll count breaths. Like I'll take someone, um, starting from 20 and mentally they'll just count each breath going down to one. Almost always you get to like 15 and you lose your count and then you know

[00:29:11] Leah Sherman: You start over again.

[00:29:12] Charlotte Bayala: start over again and you lose the calm right there.

So really, I mean, for me, the, the beginning for meditation is really focusing on breath and, and mostly because you can do it anywhere. You don't have to be somewhere specific. You don't have to be sitting in a specific, pose. You can be out walking, you can focus on your breath while you're like running on a walk.

[00:29:37] Leah Sherman: Driving.

[00:29:38] Charlotte Bayala: Yes, standing in line at the supermarket or while someone who's you don't really like is talking to you and you really need to like control your emotions. Like are moments where I'll come, like if, if we're like at a party or something and I'll walk away from a conversation I'm having and after like when we're, you know, when you debrief with your spouse and my husband will say, so I can tell you really didn't like the conversation you were in with so and so, and I'm like. How could you, he's like, 'cause you started deep breathing, so, so it, it helps. But the thing is like, once you know how to use your breath as a tool, it is so magical because there's so many different ways that you can use it to help yourself in the moment, to help yourself become more resilient. You know, you start to find yourself like things that you would catch your breath because you're angry, you're frustrated if you are. Now familiar with your breath and know how to use it as a tool, then that's when you're like, oh, I just need to take a longer, no longer exhale, just a couple of longer exhales. And because it's all about our nervous systems. So meditation is all about getting your nervous system to know that you're not under attack, that you can release and let go, once you can learn how to tap into that. you feel like meditation is something that you want to explore further. There's so many different kinds that if you find the one that you love make you feel night and day different than when you started in less than five minutes. I would say I sat down with anyone, for sure could get them to feel completely different when they open their eyes than when they close them. It's

[00:31:28] Leah Sherman: that

[00:31:28] Charlotte Bayala: what we need.

[00:31:29] Leah Sherman: that's, and that's such, it's such a. Stress reaction too in a stressful situation just to hold your breath, like you said. and yeah, that completely is so dysregulating to your nervous system. And so yeah, that, that reminder to breathe is fantastic. It's absolutely fantastic. and that is part of your skin anxiety toolkit that you have.

[00:31:57] Charlotte Bayala: Yeah. Yeah. anxiety is something that we all encounter in the cancer world. it literally is the difference in how you feel. Moving into the point, the appointment times. So if you know that you, your husband or your spouse or the person you're caring for has, uh, an oncology appointment coming up, it's that, that on top of everything you're feeling, the overwhelm, the anxiety and stress.

It's that extra that you feel. It's the extra worry, the extra anxiety, Oftentimes, I know for me, when it's easy to close yourself off from everything else that's happening and you start to really find yourself in your head. and so there's a a lot of different ways that you can help yourself get through that so that you can enjoy time leading up to appointments that literally could change your life, right? oncology appointments, all it takes is a sentence. Good or bad, We have to change the treatment. It wasn't working or the treatment's been working fantastically. Now we can go into this, but you never know. And that's what causes all of this anxiety, which has been now the term scan anxiety. and so in the scans ID toolkit, it's literally just three tools. It's um. Square breath. It's a grounding exercise that you can do anywhere. especially if you're sitting in an oncology appoint, uh, office, which we know you're gonna most likely be there an extra hour I've never met an oncologist that's on time, which I appreciate when I have extra questions.

Right? But, it doesn't help the stress when you're sitting there waiting. and then a tool, that you can use. You know when you wake up at three o'clock in the morning and you just can't go back to sleep. And so those are all audio files and a PDF and square breath really is the easiest one though, out of all of 'em.

[00:33:52] Leah Sherman: And we've talked about. Square breathing, box breathing before, on the podcast, I think, I believe we have. Um, but can you go a little bit into that because I love that. I think that's one of my, my favorite ways of, um, of, yeah, not only grounding, but just kind of relaxing and focus and all of that.

[00:34:14] Charlotte Bayala: so square breathing, what you do is your inhale, your breath in and your breath out, the space in between those two breaths are the same length. if, let's say you breathe in for a count of three, which you just mentally count, and then you hold for a count of three. let it out for a count of three and you hold for a count of three and you keep just going through the cycle. I think the important thing about square breathing is that you don't want it to feel like you are gradually reaching for breathing, right? oftentimes, you know, people will will say, a square breath, but it's four, four. Four, four or five, right? So a breath in a five might feel okay, but holding for five might be difficult for

[00:35:05] Leah Sherman: Right.

[00:35:05] Charlotte Bayala: then you have to hold that exhale as you slowly let it back out. And then you gotta wait five more counts before you could, like, it's just slowly starts to, I've watched people and. If it's friends of mine, it's kind of funny because I can see the spiral happening.

So I think that the important thing is to understand that if you feel like you don't have control of your breath, it, that does the opposite of what it should do, right? So with square breathing, find the, the rate works for you. I normally start people at three. You breathe in for a count of three, you hold for a count of three. You let it out for a count of three. You hold for a count of three, what it does is it regulates your nervous system so that, your body begins to move into the rest and digest that parasympathetic nervous system that literally allows so many different functions of your body to actually run better.

Digestion for sure. Um, your diaphragm moving and, and, and hitting nerves that our bodies need for our brain to know that we're safe. and it works in so many different instances. It works when you're anxious. It works when you're feeling frustrated or angry. It works when there's worry. It kind of brings you out of whatever emotional state you're in because. you are breathing in and out, sure. We're used to that. It's the holding in the middle that you really have to think about, and so it is the easiest way to bring your full attention to breathing because we don't instinctually hold. Our breath in between bringing it in and letting it back out again. So it's, it's what I use often.

Like if people have, a lot of trouble with anxiety in general, when you have those moments where you're, the announcement pops up on your phone that. the CT scan is in two days, like that feeling that it gives you, that's where square breathing really helps because you can pull it out whenever you want.

You always have it. It's just learning how to think of using it.

[00:37:26] Leah Sherman: And I have recommended that to patients before their scans or when they're laying in, you know, the MRI or you know, the CT scanner and you know that it's in itself for a lot of people, it's very claustrophobic. And so that is something that is a tool that I used with, a lot of my patients. And what I always told them was, and maybe it's urban legend, but I saw it on several articles, is that the Navy Seals were taught

[00:37:55] Charlotte Bayala: They do.

[00:37:56] Leah Sherman: this

[00:37:57] Charlotte Bayala: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:58] Leah Sherman: they go on a mission,

[00:37:59] Charlotte Bayala: Yeah.

[00:38:00] Leah Sherman: and so I always said like, if it works for the Navy Seals, it's gonna work for you.

[00:38:05] Charlotte Bayala: It also helps if you can't fall asleep,

[00:38:07] Leah Sherman: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:09] Charlotte Bayala: which a lot of people don't think about. Breathing, helping you fall asleep, but square, any kind of focused breathing. But definitely square breath is extremely helpful if you are just laying there and you can't fall asleep. But yeah, you know, if, if the Navy Seals can do it, it's always it interesting and, entertaining when I see the, regular world. So to speak, learn that, there are some breathing techniques that people have been doing for centuries that actually really work well.

[00:38:45] Leah Sherman: You mean the non yoga, non-meditation world, which is like a lot of people, it's Most people I would say.

[00:38:52] Charlotte Bayala: So when they, when people come up to me when they, when they, um, are introduced or they know that I, I'm like the, the breath work person, they're like, oh my goodness.

I just, I just saw the Navy Seals do square breathing and I tried it and it was amazing and I'm like. Geez. So the Navy Seals have to do something for you to learn how to, like, it's, I love that, that it's being proven

[00:39:18] Leah Sherman: Right,

[00:39:19] Charlotte Bayala: that it works

[00:39:20] Leah Sherman: right.

[00:39:20] Charlotte Bayala: and, and okay, it's a backup that maybe we need, I don't know, but

[00:39:26] Leah Sherman: It's most validation for them, right? Like if their favorite quarterback did it, you know, if they talked about it at a press conference, then they'd be like, oh yeah,

[00:39:34] Charlotte Bayala: to do. We need spokespeople for breathing from like

[00:39:39] Leah Sherman: from the celebrity, the in, not the influencers, but yeah.

[00:39:43] Charlotte Bayala: But no, it is, and and that just shows how powerful square breathing is that a whole dedicated, like very focused minded people like the Navy seals use all the time, um, their composure, to be able to adapt to. You know, continuously changing surroundings, then I think then it's worth it to try it when you're sitting in an oncology office and, and you need to really slow down what's happening in front of you.

[00:40:16] Leah Sherman: Right. And focus. Yeah. And so how can somebody download the Scanxiety toolkit?

[00:40:22] Charlotte Bayala: Yeah, they can go to cancer caregiver podcast.com/tools. and if they just go to cancer caregiver podcast.com, they'll find everything there. 

[00:40:34] Leah Sherman: All the episodes and everything.

[00:40:36] Charlotte Bayala: Anytime there's anything new, it'll all be there. Yeah.

[00:40:40] Leah Sherman: Is there anything else that you want to share with us before we sign off?

Uh, no. I'm just really happy that everyone is listening. Look forward to anyone that you know, signs up For the newsletter, the scanxiety toolkit to say hi. You can leave a voice message for me on my website if that's something you wanna do. I love getting those. anything that I can do to help, or to listen to, I'm here.

And like I mentioned, I started listening to the podcast after we connected and it's really great. It's so, um, it's so needed, I think, to, to have someone give a voice for the caregivers. And it's not just for cancer caregivers, it's for anyone And I think, you know, as you know, generations who are more open to listening to podcasts as we are aging and we're becoming caregivers to our parents and, you know, to our, you know, other loved ones, yeah, this is such an important resource for people.

So I'm really glad that we are able to connect.

[00:41:46] Charlotte Bayala: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

 Thanks for listening to the cancer pod. Remember to subscribe, review and rate us wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on social media for updates, and as always, this is not medical advice. These are our opinions. Talk to your doctor before changing anything related to your treatment plan. The cancer pod is hosted by me, Dr.

Leah Sherman. And by Dr. Tina Kaczor music is by Kevin McLeod. See you next time. 

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