Risk Reduction & The Cancer Conflict

Leah 0:00

Welcome to episode 48 of the Cancer Pod, where Tina and I continue our discussion inspired by the 2022 film, the Cancer Conflict Join us as we talk about the difference between cancer risk reduction before and after a diagnosis, and as we introduce the concept of the foundations of health.

Tina 0:16

I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the science-y one

Leah 0:20

and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside

Tina 0:23

And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care

Leah 0:27

But we're not your doctors

Tina 0:30

This is for education entertainment and informational purposes only

Leah 0:34

do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor

Tina 0:38

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own

Leah 0:44

Welcome to the cancer pod

Introduction

Leah 1:03

Hello, Tina.

Tina 1:04

Good morning, Leah.

Leah 1:05

So what are we talking about?

Tina 1:07

We are going to have a conversation around the movie, the Cancer Conflict, but no one needs to have seen the movie. If you have, great. If you haven't, that's okay. But that movie left us both with a lot of questions and a lot of topics that I think could be instructive for other people to hear.

Leah 1:23

So for people who haven't seen the movie, it's available on Amazon Prime and Apple. TV to rent and, well, I guess we should do a short little recap, right?

Tina 1:36

Yeah. Let's give a little background so people know what's inspired our. Conversation today.

Leah 1:40

yeah. For people who haven't seen it or don't have any desire to see it. So, the movie is about two different people. they both live in England and. The woman's Surrender is diagnosed with early stage breast cancer, and the gentleman his name's Grant, and he was diagnosed with early stage colon cancer. So he thought,

Tina 2:03

Mm-hmm.

Leah 2:04

it turns out he had stage four cancer and it kind of follows each one of their paths where Grant chose the more conventional treatment and surrender. Chose not to. Anything conventional and to solely do alternative cancer care. And that was based on her personal and her family's beliefs on, conventional medicine, just in. So it wasn't specific to cancer. She had always opted for alternative medical treatments in the past.

Tina 2:34

Yeah. And I think, I wanna say one thing about the word alternative as used in this movie, cuz the cancer conflict is basically should you go alternative or should you go conventional? And the word alternative is literal when we use it, you and I, like surrender. Chose in the movie to do only alternative, she refused surgery, from a conventional

Leah 2:56

Right,

Tina 2:58

she did exactly what we envision as an alternative therapy, which is a refusal of conventional therapy and in lieu of conventional therapy doing an alternative therapy. So she went the path of what I think when people hear about alternative therapy, that's what they. In the gentleman's case in that movie grant, they called it alternative, but I wanna be clear that he tacked it on to what he was already doing. So it really wasn't alternative and it wasn't natural medicine, it was going to Germany getting what was treatments that he could get in Germany that he could not get. In the uk. So that was a little different scenario of what they call alternative. But for for our purposes, you and I today, let's just stick with alternative medicine being what she did, cause I think that's what we envision. It's not complimentary, it's not integrative, it's just in lieu of conventional treatment. That's how we define alternative.

Leah 3:48

Right,

Tina 3:49

Chloe agrees,

Leah 3:51

Chloe agrees. Chloe is back here barking. Um, so eventually Grant opts out of doing conventional treatment as his disease progresses. and he goes for a more alternative approach.

Tina 4:09

Mm-hmm.

Leah 4:10

And so that's what we're gonna be talking about today. Well, it came from, it came from conversation also that we had when we did our, um, interview with Amy and Steph. Cancer for breakfast. That whole thought of are there things that are natural or alternative that a person can do to prevent cancer, and how does that apply once cancer has been diagnosed? Is that a confusing way of saying it? I don't know. Maybe there's a clearer way of saying what, what we're gonna talk about.

Tina 4:43

Well, I think, what Amy and Steph, when we talked to them, that also spurred on this conversation today because. The people in the movie didn't understand the entire landscape of conventional and integrative medicine well enough in their own worlds, and nor should they. Neither of them were professionals, you know, medical professionals of any kind. They didn't understand the landscape well enough to understand the how to integrate them. So rather than integrating. Best of both worlds, They didn't have the wherewithal to do that. So choosing all alternative was based not on the best options for outcome, but rather on her philosophical belief systems. And in his case, similar. I mean, he was a scientist, so he went straight to the science and really wasn't that open minded to natural things and combining things and integrating. And I think for me and you, integration is a, our, it's what we do. We integrate, um, we, we practice integrative oncology, which is neither conventional nor alternative. So

The cancer continuum

Tina 5:43

I think when we talked to Steph and Amy, my, thought process was along the lines of understanding the difference between when cancer is forming and what you can do to reduce the risk of cancer formation. And then once cancer is present, cancer control. Like how do you control cancer growth if there is cancer in the body, and understanding the biological difference between the two. it takes a broad knowledge base and I think that's what spurred this conversation cuz you and I were like understanding the landscape of cancer care. It's a continuum from not having cancer to having a cancer diagnosis to being post-treatment. And so understanding how the biology differs between them is, is one of those things that I think fell short for each person in this movie in different.

Leah 6:27

And then there's that weird kind of purgatory area where, you know, many of us live with cancer without knowing that we have cancer. and it's not diagnosed until. It's felt or, you know, symptoms start to appear. And so I think that's where people will do things as we're gonna talk about to reduce their risk of getting cancer, but they may already have it. And so is that even safe? The things that they may be doing.

Tina 6:57

right.

Leah 6:58

I'm thinking like high dose supplements, right? People will take like super high dose of certain supplements. Maybe they have a family history They're taking it for another reason. And so I think of that like, well, if you already have cancer and you're taking these high dose supplements,

Tina 7:13

mm-hmm.

Leah 7:14

are you doing more harm?

Tina 7:16

Possibly.

Leah 7:16

yeah. So let's, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and we're gonna recap what we discussed in our supplements, the basics episode on how we use supplements in general, and then we'll kind of go from there.

Tina 7:29

Sounds good.

Leah 7:36

All right, we're back. so I guess we should explain Tina's on the road and. And so she's coming up with creative ways of creating a sound booth.

Tina 7:49

Yeah, so, which is basically the inside of my truck.

Leah 7:52

Um,

3 reasons to take supplements

Leah 7:53

so as discussed in episode 20, which was supplements 1 0 1, the basics, we went over why supplements are used in the first place. So the primary reason supplements are. Used is to prevent or to treat an acute nutrient deficiency. And so that would be like using vitamin D to treat rickets or vitamin C to treat, or I should say prevent, um, scurvy, those kinds of things.

Tina 8:22

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So. That is a very small amount of each nutrient to prevent scurvy or rickets or whatever. And then there is prevention of chronic nutrient deficiencies. So this might be something we think along the lines of, say fish oil, where over time a chronic deficiency can have effects on a person, but we're not gonna see it as an acute deficiency. and then there's green pharmacy,

Leah 8:44

right? And that's like, using a supplement in place of using a medication or in addition to using, to taking a prescription medication to maybe make it work a little better, but it's using it more as if it itself was a

Tina 8:59

pharmaceutical. Yeah, I like the word nutraceutical. I use it in that sense, like you're using something in a very high dose or purpose. To change the physiology, to push the physiology like a drug does, right? Drugs. Do something to your biochemical reactions that you wouldn't normally. Have done or your, your body wouldn't normally do. So I think with nutraceuticals, as if we're supporting our pathways and our biochemistry with vitamins and minerals especially, that is just not being deficient. Then when you take a nutraceutical dose, a high dose or a mega dose, whatever we wanna call it, You're shoving it, like if one is supportive, the other one is shoving the pathway. Like you must go forward or you must, you know, stop happening. Whatever we're gonna be doing with inhibiting a pathway or we're making it go faster. But these are pathways in the body that are reactions just like a drug. So in the nutraceutical is a lot more like a drug than any other. Usage of these

Leah 9:56

nutrients. And I don't think of nutraceuticals as always being super high dose. I mean, it could be something like taking an adaptogen to help with stress or sleep. Um, it would just be something that you probably normally wouldn't get through your diet. Um, interesting. Yeah. You know, or even like melatonin, like people could take half a milligram of melatonin, which I mean, in terms. Doses of melatonin that is higher than what our brain would produce, but it's still, it's something specific to help somebody fall asleep. You know, it's, so, I kind of think of it in that way as instead of someone maybe taking an Ambien, they might take a sleep supplement combo or a single Arian or whatever they may take to, to achieve the.

Tina 10:41

Effect. Mm-hmm. See, I, I think of those as like Valer itself, I would consider green pharmacy for sure. Right, right. Okay. Yeah. And, and I put adaptogens, adaptogens just for people who don't know what those are. They help you adapt and endure stressful events. So if you have a very stressful lifestyle or even, you know, occasional stressors that kind of throw you adaptogens are. That support you and help you get over that and help you overcome stress. Um, but that concept does not exist in conventional medicine. There are no adaptogens that are medicines, so I think of adaptogens as tonics, you know, like the old fashioned herbalist tonic. And that happens to be a tonic for the adrenals, for your adrenal glands as opposed to a tonic for your lungs. Plants for that So it's funny cuz I think of adaptogens as separate from green pharmacy because it's a concept that no medical doctor really even has been taught and, and oh

Leah 11:39

and see. And I consider that green pharmacy as well. I consider what we do with supplements to reduce the risk or address. Side effects from treatment also is green pharmacy. Yeah. We,

Tina 11:52

we, we have different interpretations then, cause I think of green pharmacy a little bit like a, a one to one thing. Like if you have ibuprofen on the shelf, curcumin would be sitting next to it. So it'd be a one to one swap out You know, like in instead of this drug, I'm going to use this plant, or I'm gonna use this nutrient. That's how I think of green pharmacy, like a one to one swap. I don't wanna say it's pejorative, but I want a little bit because I think that it lacks the paradigm that you and I use, which is how do you get the body back in the balance while you address

Leah 12:18

the. Oh, well see. Yeah, cuz otherwise it doesn't fit into one of those other categories. I'm just going by the categories So that's why I shove all of that in there. Gotcha. So, okay, so that's kind of a, a recap on why supplements are used in the first place and then there's the alternative way of treating cancer as Surrender. Did. Um, and I guess that would be Green pharmacy. I mean, I don't know where she, oh, she got a lot of her information from Facebook.

Anecdotal evidence - an oxymoron?

Tina 12:47

Yeah, so this, this is a something we should talk about, why anecdotal evidence can lead you astray. I think it's fine. We have to listen to anecdotal evidence. We have to listen to people's stories, cuz sometimes that's where we find little gems of information. At the same time, people can misrepresent what actually happened, and that was a big part of that movie and I thought they did that very well. They talk to people who had had surgery, for example, person has surgery, then goes on to do whatever natural medicines, alternative medicines, and when they don't have a recurrence of their cancer, when they're cancer free, and the interviewer asks them, what do you credit to being cancer free? They'll say The alternative medicine they did or the natural medicine, right? When in fact they had their tumor removed by surgery. And so there was a discrepancy between what people. Worked and what actually was done, and oftentimes, and the movie did this too, there are people out there espousing natural medicine who in fact had conventional medicine. In the movie, the person they included was Chris, war of Chris Beat Cancer. Chris Beats cancer is a very popular, widely known alternative. Um, I don't know, what do we call him? Influencer? I don't know. Influencer, that's the word. Um, but, He did have, whether its stage two or three is not important. But he had a colorectal cancer that was surgically removed. And if my memory is correct, he had a 50 50 chance of recurrence at that time with just surgery. So he refused chemo and then went on to create crispy cancer. But he's misrepresenting the truth if. Claims that he did it through natural means he had surgery.

Leah 14:27

And I don't know enough about what he talks about in terms of is he also promoting supplements? I know he's very much into diet, I'm just familiar with just the periphery of his story. But, do have patients who have ref, you know, like, um, referenced him and aren't aware even though he does have it on his website, and he did, he does talk about it, but it's not, the first thing he talks about was his surgery. Like, so people aren't completely familiar with his story either and they're the ones who are following his advice. So are you familiar with, with kind of the. That he talks about,

Tina 15:02

I think a lot of the information is very good in the sense of reducing risk, um, both for a primary diagnosis as well. Asur. But unfortunately some people look at that and maybe because of the title Chris Beats Cancer. Um, I think they misunderstand and they think that they're gonna reverse their cancer with it, instead of saying, oh, this is gonna reduce my risk of recurrence. you know, and it's pretty sound stuff. It's Mediterranean diet a lot of the times, or he'll interview other people who are doing more restrictive diets. yeah, I don't think it's harmful except for the exaggeration as to what you can accomplish. You know, helpful measures.

Leah 15:39

So it's, it's harmful in the interpretation of it. Mm-hmm. Mediterranean diets, plant-based diets have been shown to be a primary risk reduction of cancer. Mm-hmm. um, as well as wonderful things to follow. Once you've had a diagnosis to reduce your risk of recurrence, or if there is, if it's, if you're living with cancer, if you have metastatic disease, it's just a good diet to follow in general, I mean, it's just a great overall diet. Mm-hmm. you know, if you're living with cancer, As they call it, as a chronic disease, you still have the risk of having other chronic diseases, whether it's hypertension or high cholesterol or diabetes. I mean, those are just things that people are already living with in addition to a cancer diagnosis. And so doing everything you can to address those conditions through diet, I mean, it's just a win-win situation. That's a weird way to say it, but it's just, it's a great way to feed your body, to feed your cells. In a positive sense. Does that make sense? Am I, am I sounding

16:42

weird?

Tina 16:42

I don't know. No, that makes perfect sense. I think the problem comes when people do that in lieu of the conventional treatment or in lieu of known treatments to get rid of a cancer, and I would even call it so much as tragic in the case of refusing a conventional treatment that is otherwise likely to be curative and saying, I'm not gonna do. Otherwise likely curative treatment. I'm gonna go ahead and follow this diet over here and take these supplements. Like that's, to me, that goes way beyond. I mean, he's, in the case of Kris Beats cancer in the movie, they ask him, how do you feel about this when people refuse conventional treatment? And he does some kind of justification with the numbers of how many people are diagnosed with cancer or die of cancer every year and how. Already a tragedy. So what he does is, is not unethical, right? He deflects it.

Leah 17:35

And he's not the only person. I mean, he's the, he's who they focus on in the film, but he's not the only person out there who has touted diet alone as treating, you know, treating and curing cancer. And so that's kind of what we're talking about is, is it the same using diet as a prevention, risk reduction, um, mechanism once you've already, as. Refer to it as once you've already flipped that switch. Once that switch has been turned on and you have a definitive cancer diagnosis, is that diet gonna reverse things in terms of your cancer?

Tina 18:07

Mm-hmm.

Cancer as sociopathic

Tina 18:08

you know, I use the, uh, the image of cancer being fairly sociopathic, right? Like cancer cells have lost their ability to communicate with cells around them so they don't listen. They're not receptive to cell, to cell communication like normal cells are. So if we're saying that there's a switch, Flipped. You know, from the time a normal cell becomes cancer, which is carcinogenesis, that's very different than once cancer is present. So I guess if I call it a sociopath, you know, once cancer is present, we have an adult fully formed sociopathic entity that does not have any communication skills. But the carcinogenic process would be, you know, from birth to adolescence to adulthood. So can you, through the practice, Good risk reduction practices keep that cell from becoming sociopathic. Yes, I think you can, but once it crosses that line and it's fully formed and it's an adult, it's gone. You know, there's no cell to cell communication. It's off. The switch is, does not flip back. So I think that's what we're talking about and I think we have to be careful that line the sand is, is, I shouldn't even put it in the sand. That's a hard. It's not a line in the sand, it's a hard line between normal cell to cancer. And then once cancer is present in what you do, you know, whether it's with diet or lifestyle or supplements or you know, we, some of the lifestyle measures are the same across the board, but a lot of supplements

Leah 19:32

would change. And I think cuz there's so many different diets, it's not just people doing a Mediterranean diet. There are people who are doing keto and all of these other diets. And I think that's where like the cautions come in. Mm-hmm. once there is a cancer diagnosis, being cautious in terms of any sort of restrictive diet. And so there are people who may have found out that they just had, you know, they, they just got a cancer diagnosis and suddenly they're doing 18 hour intermittent fasting. Mm-hmm. or I have a nat in the closet with me. Um, oh my God. I had a fly that was tormenting me the other night and I'm in bed and I have my cup of hot. Sleepy tea that I'm sipping I wanna sip on. And I pulled out my mug to take a sip of it and the freaking fly dove right

Tina 20:17

in and died. He like threw himself to his death in a, it just wanted your tea the whole time. Yeah. Well

Leah 20:24

it got my tea. I got it Anyways. Okay. So, um, restricted that totally like brain farted. I just remember that

Tina 20:33

stupid

Leah 20:34

dive bombing fly. So being cautious,

Restrictive diets - keto, methionine, etc.

Leah 20:38

you know, there are people who follow keto diets for whatever reason that they are following them. If they get a cancer diagnosis, that may not be the appropriate diet to continue on. So, Concerns with restrictive diets because there are nutrients that our body needs in order to heal itself after surgery or to support your blood cells during chemotherapy or radiation, and you don't really wanna deprive yourself of those

Tina 21:04

nutrients. Yeah, and I think of restrictive diets. I'm kind of fascinated by this. You get rid of cancer through either poisoning it, you know, whether we're talking about something like radiation for example, or chemo or your immune system. I mean our immune system and or cutting it out. Or cutting

Leah 21:21

it out, if that's possible. If that's possible. Mm-hmm. Cause like with leukemias, lymphomas, you're not gonna cut anything out. But there are targeted therapies that can help, um, chemotherapies that can help with that too.

Tina 21:33

Right? Right. And so I, I'm gonna give an example of a restrictive diet for prostate cancer. So a lot of people are gungho about ketogenic diet. there is actually evidence that the ketogenic diet may actually promote the growth of prostate cancer. Because prostate cancer uses certain fatty acids for its proliferation, for its growth. And so in the case of someone with prostate cancer who was on a ketogenic diet, I would actively discourage it. that's not true of all cancers. Every cancer is different. There are some pretty obscure diets for metastatic prostate cancer that are low in certain amino acids that seem to. Yeah, at least preliminary, some decent evidence. I mean, these are men with what's called androgen resistant metastatic prostate cancer. it's a, it's a tough cancer to treat. We don't have a lot of tools.

Leah 22:25

That's when the cancer doesn't respond or stops responding to the anti hormone treatment.

Tina 22:31

Right. And so in that scenario, there are some restrictive diets. Are worth doing with a nutritionist to make sure you get proper nutrients at the same time. And those are usually restriction of certain amino acids in those particular diets.

Leah 22:46

Right? Choline is the big one, right? That's the one where. It's mostly found in like chicken skin and in eggs. And so that's a typical recommendation, from the dietician to avoid those two foods because Cole may not be the

Tina 23:03

best thing. Yeah. And. And there's a lo methionine diet, which is very difficult to achieve. But the lo methionine diet is used in metastatic prostate cancer in particular because it leads to a lower production of these amino acids called poly means. And those poly means, I know that's a big word, but poly means many am means as an amino acids. These are little chains of aminos that are very specific molecules that cause prostate cancer to grow. So if you can do a low methionine diet again with a nutritionist is vest because it's a very difficult diet. but there's data on this. You know, there's decent data on a low poly mean diet and I have myself have cases of low methionine diet. Working methionine is what these poly means are made of. So you're going upstream as they say a little bit to take out the methane. Anyways, it's, it's a very restrictive diet, but we're still controlling the growth of the cancer. We're not curing it even in that scenario. But with a metastatic cancer of any kind, and we can talk about this further in another episode, you know, control is good. Control stabilize, especially if there's no symptoms going on that. Now managing a metastatic cancer, that is considered

Leah 24:18

success.

High dose antioxidants

Leah 24:19

I think another way that people curb or try to curb, the progression of their cancer is from using high dose supplements, right? I mean, people hear like, oh, glutathione, you need more antioxidants. You know, taking things like Na en Acetylcysteine, which is a precursor. Glutathione, which is an antioxidant that we have in our body. Um, these are ways of thinking like, maybe I can fight the cancer from taking high dose supplements. Mm. Using them as a pharmaceutical, and I'm not talking like, High dose vitamin C because as we've talked before, um, that's not the same mechanism as ingesting high doses of vitamin C orally. It's a completely different, um, way of targeting. Mm-hmm. So, but, but there is that whole movement on taking resveratrol or taking, you know, like at doses that aren't what you would get from food, taking vitamin E, taking selenium

Tina 25:20

and what's happening when we're doing this. When you do high dose reve, High dose vitamin C, and we're talking really high doses of these. You are taking a molecule that in low dose is an oxid. And you're going so high with the dose that it now is the opposite of an antioxidant. It's called an oxidant. Actually, oxidation is happening within the cells. Oxidative therapies can have a role in controlling cancer growth. Again, you'll hear me say control or use words that say stabilize. I'm not gonna say cure, because cure is a whole nother thing that involves the immune system and and stimulating immune function. But stabilizing disease with oxidative treatments, sure, that's something people should do or can do, I should say, if they're in a state where there's very few options, at the same time, you still have to work with someone who really knows their stuff. I mean, this is not something you can just pick up on Dr. Google and run with it. Their doses are really important. The difference between antioxidant and an oxidant, same molecule, two totally different things. Has to do with dose and how to get to those high doses and make sure you do them properly. And also

Leah 26:33

it's cancer specific cuz there's, you know, there's, there's this thought that like, what's good for one cancer is good for. All cancers and cancer, as we have explained, and I think is really becoming more and more known because of different targeted therapies and, you know, immunotherapies. I mean, it's very individual and so if somebody reads on a Facebook forum that you know they're taking. Let's say high dose NAC for whatever they've got going on and somebody else takes it because that's what allegedly is helping this other person. It may actually be bad for the, their

Tina 27:09

specific cancer. Yeah. And that na, the n acetyl cystine, and for that matter, anything that really increases glutathione or some of these other antioxidant systems within cells, I'm not a fan of those. When we think cancer is present and we're trying to control cancer, it's great when you're trying to overcome some damage, whether it's from chemo, radiation, that kind of thing, you need to support normal cell repair. But the problem with NAC in particular is that there is some studies, at least in animals, that show when an animal is given na, there. Higher probability that their cancer will spread. One that I'm thinking of in particular was a melanoma study and they gave the mice NAC and sure enough they had more lung metastasis. And so, you know, we do need, we need to understand these agents and be open mind about negative data. I mean, it sounds, sometimes I, I wonder, Leia, you and I are almost sound like we're anti naturopathic. Bring up negative data, but it's because with, it's what nobody talks about, it's the conversation nobody wants to have, which is, you know, what was a study that was an NA that had an untoward effect or a negative effect? We need to be open minded and say, All the data's on the table and it needs to, you know, basically be not likely to be harmful to even be considered. So I think of NAC as possibly doing harm. So I avoid NA in people with

Animal data- when we do use it

Tina 28:39

a history of cancer if I can.

Leah 28:40

There are probably people out there right now thinking, okay, she's talking about an animal study, but she just has told us in previous episodes that animal studies may not relate to how things are in humans. And I think what. I'm speaking for both of us, but correct me if I'm wrong, when looking at a supplement as to whether or not to use, I use animal studies. Cell studies, they have more weight on the when not to use it category as opposed to the when to use it category. Would you say the same for

Tina 29:11

yourself? Yeah. I, you know, I don't even wanna give a 1% chance that we're gonna give somebody something that's gonna cause the spread of their cancer, So, yes, I will take animal data and extrapolate it if it is a negative effect. If it's a positive effect, I'd like to see the positive effect happen in a human study because now we're asking people to do something almost in faith, right? You want, you say, okay, take this supplement, whatever it is, or maybe a mushroom extract because it's gonna help your immune system because someone has an immune problem. I wanna see that that worked. You know, there's studies showing that when people took Coriolis mushroom and they had a history of colorectal cancer, they literally, in the study, have less recurrence of their colorectal cancer. That's a good reason Um, if there was some negative studies, then I would take it off the table pretty quickly because doing harm is the worst thing possible. Right. Even if it was animal studies, I still would take it off

Leah 30:02

the table. Okay. I think we're probably bumming some people out right now, so why don't we take another break and then when we come back we'll talk about those common things that people can do for reducing their risk of either getting cancer or. Recurrence. And then there are also things that you can do once you have a cancer diagnosis to, I'm guess just for overall wellness. That's a cheesy way of saying it. What we're gonna be discussing are known as in some circles, the foundations of health. So that's where we'll go

Tina 30:34

after this break. All right.

Foundations of health

Tina 30:43

Right. So you said we're gonna talk about foundations of health, and this is things that are always okay to do, always supportive, and maybe even helping with cancer control if cancer is present. Um, and certainly good for overall health. So let's just talk about what you can do instead of this negative. Nancy talk. We've been doing We don't like to bump people out. Yeah. We're bumming each other out with that. Talk about what we don't do and why you can't do it. And yeah, enough with the problems. Let's look at some solutions. So what you can do, what you can always do, and we always advocate are the foundations

Leah 31:16

of health. So diet is kind of what we've already touched on. Um, and we have mentioned a lot the Mediterranean diet, and as mentioned in previous episodes, maybe the Mediterranean diet isn't for everybody. Refer your patients to that website Old Ways. Mm-hmm. and it doesn't cover everybody's kind of, I guess that's a Heritage Diet website and it, yeah.

Tina 31:41

Yeah. It doesn't

Leah 31:41

cover everybody because apparently if you're like Northern European, there is no heritage diet on that, um, website.

Tina 31:49

But no, they, they went with continents. So they did basically, um, there's a Latin X. Or Hispanic diet. There is African and then there is, Asian. So I think they pretty much went by continent. Um, and there's also

Leah 32:07

vegan, vegetarian? Yes. Cause that's where I refer patients who are trying to adopt a more plant-based diet. I don't necessarily tell them, you know, vegan is the way to go, but if they're like, I'm looking for recipes, I'll just send them to that website so that they can get a. More information on those

Tina 32:24

diets. Mm-hmm. you know, the biology is this. Our bodies are expecting what our parents, grandparents, great grandparents, and great, great, great great grandparents. If you do have a lineage that is, you know, traceable like that, look back to see what people were eating. Pre refrigeration in particular, um, pre canning, like what did your ancestors eat? And that is what you are biologically. To take in and to metabolize. So that's kind of that whole biological base of a heritage

Leah 32:55

diet. many of us are combinations. Mm-hmm. So, you know, that kind of opens you up to even eating more di, more diversely, more diversely, Mm-hmm. di, diversity of Diversity or der A lot of it is emphasizing plants, and as we've previously mentioned, um, the more diverse a plant diet, then the more diverse. your gut

Tina 33:21

bacteria is mm-hmm. And the more diverse your gut bacteria is, the better your immune system is able to function.

Leah 33:28

Right. And that it supports your immune system, it supports, um, your mood, your digestion, all kinds of things.

Tina 33:34

Mm-hmm. So another thing in the foundations of health, and I don't think this is gonna be surprising to anybody, is movement. Exercise. So there's no time that, that's not indicated. So exercise slash movement is always good. Getting your blood circulating. It's good for your mental state, it's good for your sleep habits, it's good for your overall function. Of course, it's good for cardiovascular and lung support. so exercise, whether risk reduction for your primary diagnosis, even when you're going through treatment. So you're in active treatment. If you can get enough movement, walking is. Whatever you can do. working with someone who can work alongside you to make sure you do it safely is always a good idea. And then post-treatment, there's a lot of, lot of data on how exercise after treatment for cancer lowers your risk of recurrence significantly. And most of the information happens to be in breast cancer, but there is some for colorectal cancer and prostate cancer. Um, so I put that probably top of the list as far as the evidence goes. There's more evidence for exercise than anything else,

Leah 34:35

and with exercise, incorporating weights and trying to, as I tell my patients, trying to maintain that muscle mass, if not increasing muscle mass while in treatment, um, will help to make. The treatment more effective, it will help to reduce certain side effects, including fatigue. Um, mm-hmm.

Tina 34:57

well, that's a good segue. Oh, go ahead. I'll let you finish.

Leah 35:00

Oh, oh, no, I, I don't know if I can finish. I don't, The brain is starting to go. Um, it can help with memory you know, there, there's so much benefit and so the recommendation is 150 minutes a week of moderate exercise. Something like walking or riding a bike and still able to have a conversation. Mm-hmm. So it's really not that strenuous and it could be done in 10 minute increments. It doesn't have to be done an hour of exercise and then incorporating weights. And I am through a program that we have started at the cancer center where I'm working, we're referring patients to a program. Where they're having a custom exercise regimen set up for them where it doesn't matter what their cancer is, it doesn't matter what their treatment is, it doesn't matter what their stage is and. This has only been going on for several months and just hearing stories from the people who are executing the program that patients are using, walker's less, you know, they're having more energy. Mm-hmm. it's kind of cool because this really hasn't been going on very long and. For people who are following the program, they're seeing progress in a very short period of time.

Tina 36:18

Yeah, and I would say to people, ask at the desk, ask your nurses. Ask the doc. Is there any kind of exercise program that's supported within the Cancer center itself or afterwards? Sometimes the Y M C A has programs that can be free for people who have had treat. Um, inquire about it because I think the more that people inquire about it, the more likely those programs get created. Right. So I think pushing the, the kind of grassroots effort to create more of these programs, and they are the large cancer centers. Are doing it. I know MD Anderson and Sloan Kettering and those kind of places have these kind of programs put together. But even small community clinics, I think that there's offerings there, but you do have to inquire. They often don't just, unless you have a naturopathic physician on staff like Leia to suggest it, oftentimes you have to

Leah 37:06

seek it out and. Yeah, ask for an exercise prescription because it's more than just someone telling you, oh, just walk. Mm-hmm. you know, it's, it's making sure that it's safe for what you as an individual have going on. And so getting a referral to, physical therapy Or something similar is important so that it's not like, oh, just go sit on an exercise bike, or, oh, go lift weights. And it may not be what is right for you specifically.

Tina 37:34

Right? Yeah. And this segues building muscle and exercising segues nicely into the other foundation of health that we can advocate whether you're preventing primary diagnosis, preventing recurrence, or you have active cancer that you're controlling and managing. And that's blood sugar control, glucose in your bloodstream. Controlling that and making sure it doesn't spike too high or dip, or dip too low. Um, so blood sugar control and keeping that within a normal range is, is on the foundations of health. On your to-do list, on the short to-do list that you have. Throughout the cancer

Leah 38:09

continuum. And that's, yeah, like you said, that snuggles in nicely with the diet and exercise the two of those together as well as the next one, which would be

Tina 38:18

sleep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So blood sugar control and sleep are not, Unrelated. So when people have issues with blood sugar, they can have issues with sleep. So yeah, sound, sleep. We know lack of sleep is associated with higher rates of cancer and cancer recurrence in some cancers. So good deep restorative sleep is. One of those foundations of health that there is no time, that that is not appropriate.

Leah 38:43

And then see they're all tied together. It's weird. Isn't it weird? Isn't it weird how like we we're all connected? but, but sleep. Kind of gets tied in with the last one, which is stress reduction.

Tina 38:58

Yeah. What we've learned in the last 10 to 15 years about how neurotransmitters, which are these, you know, these molecules in your brain and throughout your body, actually, they're not just in your brain, they're everywhere in your body. They're circulating and

Leah 39:11

communicating. They're communicating. Molecules.

Tina 39:15

Yeah. And some cancers have receptors for them, so they'll have receptors. And we know that stress reduction is really important to help control cancer. So when people do have existing cancer, we talk a lot about how do you manage stress? By virtue of having the diagnosis, there is stress. Not to mention life goes on and there's other stressors, whether it's family or work or whatever. Um, so I put that super high on my list and I must address kind of thing, forest bathing, which is the fancy way. The, I think that's a literal translation of the Japanese. Um, but forest bathing is basically taking a walk in the woods, being around greenery, being around trees, and that reduces stress. There's good studies.

Leah 40:02

So there are people who become certified in forest therapy, which is kind of cool. You can, um, probably do a Google search, maybe we'll look it up and link, but I, I do know somebody who has. Completed certification for being like a forest therapy guide. Um, and so I think that's gonna be growing more and more popular. Um, but yeah, we'll throw in a link so that people can learn more about forest bathing, forest

Tina 40:29

therapy, which is fascinating cuz really just getting out there is all you need to do is long as you don't fall down. I don't know if there's a lot more What more is there to.

Leah 40:40

I don't know. I haven't, I haven't gone the, the one time that, um, they were offering like a walk, you know, they were gonna do a guided walk. I wasn't able to go along. But I do wanna, I do wanna experience it more and I wanna find ways of incorporating that into, the integrative program at the cancer center too. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. That's, that's a huge one. I think meditation is one that a lot of people think of, and you don't have to call it meditation. it could be through. Using like a controlled breath, prayer, what, whatever the words are, but it's that focusing more on breath than your thoughts.

Tina 41:17

I, I totally agree. Whatever brings you to that relaxed state of just being in the moment and not worrying about tomorrow, and not reviewing yesterday, and not thinking about your to-dos and just whatever your spiritual practice is, whatever your way of getting to that space, that place where you're just feeling good and grounded and. Hyped up, um, in meditation or prayer. These can be done while you're moving, so these are not mutually exclusive. You can be walking through the woods. And praying or meditating? You can, you don't have to. I have a lot of my patients have said to me in the past, I've tried meditation. I can't sit still like that. It just doesn't work for me. And I don't want people to think that there's one way to do it. Whatever brings you peace of mind could be considered stress reduction. Meditation, even

Leah 42:03

things like tai chi or Chiang, where you're focusing on breath and movement together, can be incredibly helpful for reducing stress. I have patients who reading scripture is what helps them to, you know, focus on something else besides whatever is going on. I have patients who, when they're in pain, they will read scripture. Um, it's, yeah, it's very individual, but knowing what resonates with you. I should say finding what resonates with you. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Is, is kind of important.

Tina 42:37

Yeah. And I'm, I'm gonna put in here also the last stress reduction method that I would recommend to people is really think about where you get joy and laughter and those happy places. Those times where I could be, I know a lot of my patients, it might be when they spend time with their grandchildren, for example. Or some people will actually take up watching comedies or movies. Pulling up old ones that they knew, made them laugh before and rewatching them. Laughter itself has a physiological effect that is an anti-stress effect and it's immune supportive. I mean, we, our immune cells actually function better. There are studies outta Japan showing that when people laughed, they had beneficial effects on their immune function. And there

Leah 43:20

is that. I think we've talked about, I don't, we've talked about so much stuff over. Seasons, but there is laugh therapy where people are all in a group and they're kind of forcing themselves to laugh and eventually it turns into actual laughter. Mm-hmm. it, I've done it. Um, I tried it once and. It's really awkward. Mm-hmm. But you do start laughing because it's so awkward.

Tina 43:47

Right?

Leah 43:49

So it's kinda like when you're watching like an old talk show or sitcom or something, there's always that one person in the back that you can hear, like with some really outrageous laugh and it kind of makes everybody else laugh. Mm-hmm. that's how I think of laugh therapy. But it's a thing, it's an actual. Yep. So I think that kind of wraps it up. I know we're gonna get comments about why didn't you go more into sleep and blood sugar control, and I think it's, well, we've already covered sleep in an episode and we can always cover blood sugar control in another episode. I just wanted, um, To kind of make that clear, like, cuz I think we did kind of go quickly over those areas, but it's more just about all of those things put together and to have people find providers who can help them with any and all parts of those, foundations.

Why we may sound down on supplements

Tina 44:36

Yeah, and I, I, I wanna make sure people understand we're not down on supplements. We use a lot of supplements in our practices. I think that the movie, the Cancer Conflict left me thinking that it was somewhat tragic, especially the woman in that film where what certainly looked like she had a pea size breast cancer in the beginning, which was amenable to surgery and ver and unlikely, and not, not impossible, but unlikely to take her life. In the following 10 years, which is what happened to her. Ultimately, she succumbed to metastatic breast cancer because she never got treatment. And I, to me, I watch that and it, it kind of hurts cuz I know that that happens and I know that people are making the decisions based on anecdotal evidence or you know, other support groups who say right on, keep doing what you're doing, you know, no conventional medicine. And in her scenario there was a possibility. A good possibility she would've been cured and still be with us today had she not made the decision she made. So I guess my big thing is work with someone that knows the landscape, the breadth and the depth of the landscape of integrative oncology and that way. You're unlikely to go the wrong direction or you know, those why's in the road, like, should I go left or should I go right. You need someone to help you. Um, and it has to be more than Google and Facebook

Leah 45:59

and there's always that, are we preventing a recurrence or are we reducing our risk? It's, and in my mind it's always reducing your risk. Mm-hmm. because it's cancer and it doesn't play by the rules. Yeah. And

Tina 46:12

so in our next episode, let's talk. What we can do, like when, when we're talking about what's best evidence to both, to either control cancer growth, if there's cancer present or, um, what is out there, what's on the cutting edge? What are people doing of various types of cancer to, you know, Augment the immune function, stimulate immune function to then attack the cancer. Like what is going on? That's real. That can be done for various cancers out there. Now a lot of this is, you know, in research still and not approved, but some things are approved and we need to talk about that too. Yeah,

Leah 46:48

cuz one thing that the movie did kind of really, I guess through their, both of the. people that they, that the film followed is, you know, it was asking this kind of question in the subtext, like, is there anything natural that has been known to cure cancer? Mm-hmm. And so, um, yeah, I mean that's a, that's a, that's a huge question, right? And it's,

Tina 47:09

it's got a problem with that is cancer is not one entity. Right. And there is nothing reliable. That's the question. So is. Anything natural, especially natural supplements that you can take enough of to say, okay, that cured the cancer as in eradicated it. I mean, cure is a four letter word. It's, it's, it's, it's hard to use the word cure because it's so elusive and so difficult in cancer care, we can say control, sometimes we can say, Stability. We can even say the cancer is dormant at times, but complete eradication is what equals cure. And that's a, that's a tall order. And um, nothing I know in nature does that. Like we can't say just take some substance graviola or some other, you know, substance touted out there to. Cure cancer. It doesn't work that

Leah 47:58

simply. And that's something that patients often ask is, you know, like, isn't there something that can kill cancer? Haven't I heard that insert name of supplement kills cancer? Um mm-hmm And that's kind of the, the same thread as well, doesn't such and such feed cancer? Um, so yeah. So we're gonna kind of dive into that.

Tina 48:17

Yeah. So if you have anything you want us to talk about, uh, in later episodes, let us know.

Leah 48:22

Oh, let's take a quick break and then come right back. Okay. Cause I wanna read a comment that we got that, I got questions about.

Tina 48:38

All right. We are back. And, um, I wanted to read a comment that, We got on this platform called audio. Audio is, it's an app that is, it's kind of new-ish and it's a bit of a search engine type of an app for, for podcasts. And I've posted a number of episodes up there. I'm kind of behind on, um, updating with the latest.

Are we shills for the fast food industry?

Tina 49:05

And we rarely get comments, so I don't always check. So apparently about a month ago, we got a comment on the episode for, um, when we did the movie review for supersize, me and Felicia oh 2 6 5 2 commented, these two come off like Shils for fast food. Hmm. And I thought, do we, and So I, I respond. Just a few days ago. Um, how so? Because I wasn't sure if we did come off like, am I, do you think it's, do you think it's because we said things like, if you have this once in a while, it's not gonna kill you?

Leah 49:46

I don't know. I'm trying to think if I was like going off on like how much I love In and Out Burger or something like I seriously don't know. So my question to the audience is if you have listened to that episode, do we come off like we're promoting fast food? I think we were more kind of going after the sensationalism. Mm-hmm. of the documentary and kind of like doubting like, well of course you got sick because you ate all that food in a really short period of time, or whatever. It was like. I do. We sound like we're pushing McDonald's. I

Tina 50:20

don't, I don't remember. I hope not. Yeah, I just thought it was the

Leah 50:24

strangest comment, but I really wanna know. So like I said, if you've listened to the Supersize Me movie Review, if you've seen the movie, um, and wanna listen to the episode, cuz I don't know if I read, really recommend people watching it. Oh, it's so date.

Tina 50:40

It's so dated. Oh sure. It's super dated and it's

Leah 50:44

sensational sensationalistic. It's sensationalized. So anyways, listen to the episode. Let us know if we do come across as shills for fast food. Um,

Tina 50:57

Should we tell people that we really are on the payroll of, uh, burger King, McDonald's, as well as, uh, what else is out there? Carl's Jr. Oh, I wanna be on the In and Out burger. That doesn't count. No, that doesn't count. Cause it's too, it's almost too healthy about fast food. It's not, it's

Leah 51:13

not. It's still fast

Tina 51:15

food, but they use real potatoes. Don't they have count potatoes Like in house?

Leah 51:20

No, that's, isn't that five guys? Oh, okay. Maybe. Maybe they do. Maybe they do use real potatoes, but it's still fried. And I think the only thing that is. Beneficial about in and Out is they don't have like a variety of sizes. You can't go up in size, but you could always order more than one thing. It's not like it's stopping you. So

Tina 51:39

anyways, I don't think I've ever been to an in and out

Leah 51:42

and not everyone likes it. That's a whole nother controversy that's out on the, the social media. But some people don't like it. Some people do. That's not what my question is about. My question is, do we sound like we're even now, do we sound like we're pushing? I do sound like I'm pushing fast

Tina 51:57

food, but, well, it doesn't still have to make money or something.

Leah 52:00

I don't know. I just thought it was somebody who is like pushing it. Maybe it is. Maybe they're pushing it for, for, uh, financial benefit anyways. That's not really a letter. If you wanna write. And let us know your thoughts on whether or not you think we push fast food. Um, please do send us a letter if you've got questions or comments

52:20

about

Tina 52:20

any of the episodes. I know we've had some emails about, um, whether we do or don't promote supplements and, you know, we tend to talk a lot about the cautionary, and I don't, I know that people can sometimes hear us as being. But what we're saying is you need to be balanced with supplements just like you are with everything else. So it's not a, it doesn't come without risks. Everything has a risk benefit balance that needs to be looked at objectively and without putting on rose colored glasses. Cause you're looking at something that's natural, right? So it might come across negative, but that's just because we have to weigh. Immense amount of rah ra must do naturopathic medicine. It's gonna cure everything. We've lived this long enough to know that as much as we wish that were true, you do need a measured amount of natural, A measured amount of conventional, neither of them is the be all, end all If you do a hundred percent conventional and never look at natural medicine, you're doing yourself a disservice. If you do a hundred percent natural and never look at conventional, you're doing yourself a disservice and there's a time and a. For each of them, and sometimes, and oftentimes combined

Leah 53:25

treatments. And that place is called integrative. All right?

Ways to support the show!

Leah 53:29

So as always, um, leave us a, leave us a review, leave us a rating wherever it is that you listen to your podcasts. Or maybe it's just on Apple Podcasts. I don't know. These things, that's why we have Tina. So, yeah, share this episode if you think that it might help a friend or family member, or just share it on the social media. Mm-hmm.

Tina 53:54

And uh, there is also a share button on your Apple podcast. You can hit the three buttons in the corner and you'll see one of them is share, and you can just send. It directly because everyone with an Apple product will have the podcast app already loaded on their device. So go ahead and hit that share button and um, we appreciate that cuz we wanna help folks and hopefully we're making things clearer and not muddier. That's what my hope is.

Leah 54:18

Clear as mud.

Tina 54:20

It as clear as mud. Now, well I tell you what, that just is an opportunity to make another episode to clarify things. So let us know if we confused you

Leah 54:28

On that note, I'm Dr. Lea Sherman. And I'm Dr. Tina Kaser, and this is the

Tina 54:33

Cancer Pod. Until next time.

54:34

Thanks for listening to the cancer pod. Remember to subscribe, review and rate us wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on social media for updates, and as always, this is not medical advice. These are our opinions. Talk to your doctor before changing anything related to your treatment plan. The cancer pod is hosted by me, Dr. Lea Sherman. And by Dr. Tina Caer music is by Kevin McLeod. See you next time.

Leah 55:22

Caffeine works well for me.