Amy & Stef, Cancer for Breakfast: #cancerinsider

Leah 0:00

Welcome to episode 46 of the Cancer Pod. On today's episode, we talk to Amy and Steph, who you may know as the co-hosts of the podcast, Cancer for Breakfast. Join us as we talk about everything from building community to virtual reality, so stick around.

Tina 0:16

I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the science-y one

Leah 0:20

and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside

Tina 0:24

And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care

Leah 0:28

But we're not your doctors

Tina 0:30

This is for education entertainment and informational purposes only

Leah 0:34

do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor

Tina 0:39

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own

Leah 0:45

Welcome to the cancer pod

Introduction

Leah 1:03

Hey, Tina.

Tina 1:05

Hi Leia. I don't even

Leah 1:08

know what to say. We are sitting virtually in a room with two of my favorite people, the co-host of definitely my favorite podcast. We've got Amy and Steph from Cancer for Breakfast with us. I'm not even gonna like, do any banter beforehand. I just want every possible minute to talk to these two because I am, um, I'm a super fan,

Tina 1:36

Wow.

Leah 1:37

And for people who aren't familiar with Cancer for Breakfast, it is a podcast for anyone who's had a cancer diagnosis. And I have to say that it's, it's been my support group. It's been my. I don't know. I, it's like I found my people, like I, I don't know how to explain how I feel when I listen to this podcast. So, um, yeah, it makes me feel so much less alone. I laugh, I cry, I get lost when I'm driving because I'm listening so intently. yeah, I will go on and on if I could and I'm not going to, cuz I wanna talk to them.

Steph 2:23

Yeah, I didn't wanna step on that. Just, uh, let you keep going and going and going and going. You can gush about us all day long. Anytime.

Amy 2:33

the gush goes directly right back to you though. We love the cancer pod. We, from the very beginning, we're so excited. We've discovered you on Instagram before we'd ever listened. And I think Steph wrote you a message being like, Welcome to the podcast club buddies. You know, and like, Yeah. And then we listened. We're like, Oh, it's actually really, really good. And exactly

Steph 2:53

we have a mutual admiration society. Yes. And that's why we are here today. Yeah. Thanks so much for having us. We'll have you

Amy 2:59

on our, our show too, coming up.

Leah 3:01

That'll be fun. I, um, I remember when Steph sent that message and it made me feel again welcome. Like, I mean, it was just like, this is so cool. Like, we've been seen,

Tina 3:13

you

Steph 3:14

know? Oh God. Yeah. You know, that's something that really bothers me about the podcasting world in general is that, you know, I come from the nonprofit sphere where there's a lot of collaboration and a lot of comradery and I don't find that as much in podcasting. Hmm. And, I always try, I try to bring it, you know, whenever I can. I'm not disingenuous, but I so respect you guys and I was so excited to see professionals with like a fun spin, showing up to put in time and build community and stuff. so yeah, we're super fans of yours too. Mm-hmm. Um, and I just love. I love listening and I'm so excited that we're here on your podcast. A

Tina 3:55

Fun Spin on Cancer. That's That is what we all strive for. You know, that's gonna be our next T-shirt. We don't have any t-shirts. That'll be our first T-shirt.

Amy 4:06

I will buy the first one.

Tina 4:08

So

The birth of Cancer for Breakfast

Tina 4:09

I wanna know how you guys got together and created your podcast. how did you find each other? How did you decide to go and create the podcast and create the community around cancer for breakfast? How did that evolve? Yeah,

Steph 4:21

I'll, I'll tell. I'll tell them. Sure. Um, so I was in the midst of being diagnosed and my very best friend in the whole wide world said, I have this friend. Is just finishing up cancer treatment and I think that you would really hit it off. And so she introduced me to Amy, and indeed we did hit it off. Mm-hmm. It was just that immediate, I am printed on her like a little baby duckling because she was my first cancer friend.

Amy 4:51

Well, you were not my first cancer friend by any means. Or the first person I walked through a diagnosis This would happen to me frequently. I mean, you know, four or five times probably within that year

Steph 5:05

Amy knows everybody

Amy 5:07

by the way. Well, no, just everybody has cancer. So I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. No. Um, but I would get calls saying, my friend, can you talk to her? Can you let her know, like, you know, where, who is your surgeon, whatever. and we would kind of go through it and I would make real friends with some of them and others would go on through the the thing. But with Steph, it's just like, we just never stopped texting. every day. We just kept going. And then we joked about writing a book together about the cancer experience, and then one of us said, Well, let's just do a podcast and, and then we started recording without ever speaking on the phone. That's one of the weird things about our connection is we didn't even know if we had a good rapport. Right.

Steph 5:47

Yeah. It worked out, but it rolled so fast, We are both creative people and I feel like it was like two weeks maybe into our friendship that we were making these jokes about collaborating on something. And as soon as we said, How about a podcast, it was like the next day we were, we were making our husbands fish out the microphones and the mixers and setting up our little home studios. And we did talk for the very first time with our voices on the first episode of our podcast. So, it was so cool that it just happened that we have great chemistry and Now, of course our friendship encompasses so much more than cancer, but, it's been

Who's who?

Steph 6:28

really cool to build this community with Amy because we have different strengths. Amy is just like such a people person and is totally the heart and soul of the podcast with reaching out to people and, making sure everybody's okay. And she'll be the one that says like, We haven't heard from so-and-so in a while, Should I send them a message? and I'm the one who's like the fervent researcher who wants to, you know, learn about all the science and update people on what's new. And so, I don't know. I feel like we've got a great formula and I love working with Amy, so it works out for me.

Amy 7:03

It's kind of funny, when we first originally did the first couple of episodes we were gonna switch off. So for people that don't know Cancer for breakfast, we do some chatting in the first segment. we read letters from listeners and then Step does a segment called Rats, which stands for recent advances in Treatment and Science. And it is awesome because we always end on this positive note of really cool stuff going on in cancer research. Cancer treatment just advances, right?

Steph 7:32

Mm-hmm.

Amy 7:32

Um, but originally we were gonna switch off, so one episode she'd read the letters and I would do the rats. And then when it came down to it, and if you listen to the episode, you'll understand why that would never work out. like Seth was born to do rats and like I tried to do one and I was like, Slack. There's like this guy in like Belgium, I think, or some, you know. It was just like, that's not my strength. I need to read the letters, do the gossip, like get into the interpersonal minds of the cancer patient anyway. Mm-hmm. I think we're

Leah 8:00

kind of that same way, Tina, where mm-hmm. for the episodes where I don't really know a lot about what we're gonna talk about. And I do all this research and then you can hear, when I start to talk about it, I'm like,

Tina 8:13

I'm boring. Like it's not, It's

Leah 8:15

it's, You're not alone. No, but it's because it's not as easy to talk about as the personal experiences are, you know?

Steph 8:22

Yeah. Like the things that I'm

Amy 8:23

more comfortable. I'm the Leia and Steph's the Tina, but I think that we need each other to balance out. And I also think that Leia, you are so knowledgeable. um, yeah, but, but the humanity, I dunno. Gosh, gosh, gosh. It's

Leah 8:37

just not my, it's, it's just not my, like, it's not my thing. I'm more, which is weird that I'm the more touchy feely one cuz I'm not really a touchy feely person, but I guess I am now.

Steph 8:49

cancer changes, Cancer

Amy 8:51

will change you. Yep.

Leah 8:52

Freaking cancer.

Tina 9:00

Yeah. I, I think it has to do with like, who you are as a person and where your passions lie. So Steph and I geek out on, you know, On the science part and we get passionate about it and that's why we like to talk about it. And you guys are people? People,

Amy 9:17

Yeah. Yeah. I was always an events organizer by trade or a party planner of sorts. And um, now I still do that, but it is with cancer people. You know, I organize support groups in Portland. If anyone listening is a breast cancer person, a young quote unquote young, you know, we're not, we're not crazy about that, that strictness, but, you know, uh, Gen X and down, um, we have a metastatic group that I started for younger, women with mets breast cancer. And then I kind of have taken over more of an organized. Role with just the early stage group in town. So I'll tell you where to go.

Tina 9:58

Cool. We can put some links to

Leah 9:59

it. Yeah. Great. Oh yeah, we'll put that in our show notes. But, um, I do appreciate, um, you including Gen X as young.

Steph 10:06

Well, I think that there's just a different kind of cultural literacy that goes with Gen X, you know, like Yeah. We have more in common as Gen Xers and millennials and stuff than I think, like people who are, most people who are getting breast cancer in their sixties, seventies happen common.

Amy 10:22

And the groups that serve them, right.

Steph 10:23

Like Right, totally.

Amy 10:25

Our style is a little bit less of the like pink warrior. Survivor type of group. Right. Not that we look down on that at all, but I think that that doesn't speak to a certain demographic of people, including a lot of Gen Xers. and it turns them away from community. Sometimes they don't wanna go, um, do the fun run and meet the ladies for the, you know, pink brunch or whatever. So I think offering something else, you know, you know, you're gonna be able to like talk a little smack with some people and mm-hmm.

Leah 10:56

and I think, and I don't wanna generalize, but I do think that at least the circles in which I travel, humor is such an important part, right. Of how we communicate. I even explained that today. when I went to get a biopsy, I was talking to the tech and said I deal with stress using sarcasm and humor. So you know, this, this is what you gotta deal with. good

Amy 11:22

for you for just saying that upfront too. don't you find that in like a medical setting sometimes when you just like lay it out there, then it like gives you the permission to fill the space with whatever you need to feel comfortable. Oh, and before cancer, I never would've done that. I just would've been like, I could feel uncomfortable for a little while. I can just hold onto this for a minute and then get outta here. But you kind of learn, you have to do whatever you have to do in any medical appointment.

Steph 11:47

Yeah. When you're going through something so invasive, I feel like you just have to reclaim your dignity somehow, you know? Yeah. And if that's with humor, if that's with chatting up your tech or if it's, you know, with playing the music that you like in your scan, I don't know. You know, I, I really think it's important to move through this whole experience with as much authenticity as you can, because otherwise, Bottle it up and you let it out on your family and friends instead. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. of course. I'm, I'm gonna

Why the biopsy, Leah?

Steph 12:20

ask, are you okay? Like, why did you have a biopsy? Oh,

Leah 12:25

I had something show up on an mri. They were looking at something in my left food. Um, because I keep, I don't know, like nobody talks about these. This is, this is what happens. Nobody talks about these things. So when you have just an implant after a mastectomy, there are weird sensations that are felt, scraping, nerves, all this stuff. So I was having all of these sensations and when I followed up with my oncologist, we, um, decided that I'd get another mri. And so I came back up here and I got the mri. Looking at the left breast, you know, like focusing on it. And they saw something on the right side and so, Oh no. Um, I had to wait a couple weeks and I just had my biopsy this morning, so Yeah, I'll find out tomorrow,

Steph 13:13

hopefully. Oh, fingers crossed.

Amy 13:16

Good that you gotta find out tomorrow. That's so good. You don't have to wait The torturous days. Days.

Leah 13:21

Yeah. No, I was thinking that too. Like usually it's like a week, right? I mean, it's just like forever. Yeah. And if it is a week, then I'm gonna be losing my, my mind. But

Steph 13:31

you give us their phone number. If it's more than two days, Oh, I am gonna sick you on them.

Amy 13:36

Steph will talk to your doctors and I'll talk to you. Like I'll keep it calm. She'll come to it. That's that's right.

Peer support groups

Steph 13:43

Real. This is one thing I love about our support group. We have a Facebook group too that, um, we created, you know, with our listeners of the podcast. And one thing that I love about it and just about cancer support groups in general, getting peer to peer support, is when you tell somebody that you, you know, they found something on an mri, they found something on your mammogram, they've, you know, whatever. I feel like cancer people are the least likely to be like, It's okay. It's gonna be fine. Don't worry about it. You know, cancer people, I happened to my aunt and she's fine. Yeah. Cancer people are more likely to be like, Oh, that sucks. You know, like, how are you feeling? How are you coping? Can I have dinner delivered? Like, you know, We get it and we know how it feels to be in that like liminal space of worry and fear, even if you're pretty optimistic, it's still uncertain. And that, that can be so tough. Um, and it doesn't really help anybody when you're hit with that, like shiny optimism right? In your face.

Amy 14:51

But at the same time, sometimes when that optimism is coming from another cancer patient, you can actually believe it because, you know, they're not just blowing air up your whatever, you know, like, oh, like if, if I say, Oh, a girl in my support group did have that with her food and did have this thing, and like a very specific thing that you might not know happens in a certain situation sometimes, you know, like that's one of the benefits of support groups to me is finding out all the inside. Symptoms and different things that are common that maybe your doctor doesn't have time to tell you cuz all they care about your oncologist is like saving your life.

Leah 15:28

I love getting all of this information from other people because I'm constantly passing on to patients like, Yes, I've heard this before. This is, this is normal, this is, you know, this is not,

Amy 15:39

Oftentimes I hear in groups, somebody saying that their oncologist says that couldn't be a symptom of this medication or that they haven't heard of that. And then you go to a support group and three people are like, Oh yeah, that totally happened to me. But it went away after about six months, you know, like, I'm taking the same and then you're like, My oncologist doesn't know any, you know, not your oncologist, not

Steph 16:01

nine, not hours. I actually really love that about my oncologist because she's, a few times she has said just outright, there aren't studies to support this, but I have anecdotally heard that from patients and mm-hmm. I think, you know, we're talking about something, I don't want to exclude like men and non-binary and trans people from the breast cancer conversation because obviously everybody gets breast cancer. But I think, you know, something that's largely a women's health issue, we're only looking at like maybe 40 years of valid, legit research that's usable and applicable and so much research takes a really long time. So you don't necessarily have great data for these kinds of things and mm-hmm. It's really important to, in the absence of hard science, have people to talk to who have been through what you're going through, who can validate your experience or give you tips about what might help. Because I can go to my oncologist and say, Hey, I have like raging diarrhea from Myo, and she can prescribe something to me. But somebody else might say, Hey, like, have you tried, like, do you buy any chance? Eat like this brand of granola bar. And I'll be like, What? Yes. You know? And they'll be like, It has this ingredient in it, you know? It's just, I think that it's priceless to have that peer support and um, that's why it's so important for us to have our support groups. I'm doing this thing where I'm creating a, a breast cancer support bus. That I am going to be using for mobile support groups and things like that. because it is so cute.

Amy 17:45

This bus she has built it is, is so awesome. and you can

Steph 17:49

follow it on Instagram. Yeah. People can follow it on Instagram. it's not moving just yet. We're waiting for some signage and an awning. But, yeah, I mean I think that people are more open with peers. They're more likely to give peers the honest truth. And also, like a lot of people are super triggered by going to the hospital and hospitals are where a lot of support groups meet. And so, I'm trying to just break down some of those barriers to finding community that cancer people face. Cause I live in rural Washington state and. There are tons of people, like breast cancer affects so many people, as we all know. And if you live like way out in the sticks and the nearest hospital to you is, you know, a half an hour away and they don't even offer support groups, but they can like, give you a pamphlet on a support group that you have to drive to another hour and a half. Like that's just, that's not something you're gonna probably seek out. You're not gonna follow up. So, I don't know, I, I will preach all day long about the importance of finding your people. Um, and whether that's like a podcast that you love and you can write into and have the host right back and care about you as a person, or if it's a mobile support group or if it's an online support group. I just think it's so important. Or just online.

Amy 19:08

Online. Um, other cancer people who are posting, Yeah, their experience and you can connect with them. They have the same type of cancer you have. I think that's just awesome. There's so many people that are putting themselves out there and really, really. Doing it so they can connect with other people going through it. It's pretty awesome.

Leah 19:25

And that was my experience with Instagram was I just started posting things cuz I didn't post anything on Facebook. Um, cuz I didn't want people from high school knowing my business, you know? So I just started posting really kind of like random things on, um, on Instagram. And then I have found wonderful friends who, one of them I have actually met in person. The other one I hope to meet one day in person. She lives in New Zealand and you know, you just meet these incredible people who are like sending you messages, I've been stalking you, you know, I wanted to know more about like, what does hair growth look like after treatment and you know, all of these things. And yeah, it just, Instagram I think was my first support group for sure. And I, I've been reluctant to join. I have to admit the Facebook group. Mm-hmm. But maybe I'll join,

Amy 20:19

Join. It's for any cancer person. No caretakers, no. Um, cancer adjacent people, but you could be, any type of cancer you could be through with your treatment. You could be, um, somebody who is never gonna be through with your treatment. You can be anything, any gender, any anything. Um, and it's kind of awesome to have all different types of cancer, I think because it sort of takes away any sort of that, um, People having all the answers, anything and just gives more space for people sharing experiences and saying what they're going through because everybody knows that everyone's situation is so different.

Leah 20:59

I have to say the name of the

Amy 21:00

support group. So if you just search for cancer for breakfast club crying in my nightgown, you will find this Um, and it's a private group, so you have to answer a few questions and da da da da. but I will say when I was going through active treatment, um, and I was diagnosed in 20 19, 20 20 is when I was doing that stuff. And I was totally afraid of any sort of community. That's why I preach about it so much because like I didn't find my people. During the first half of my treatment and I followed maybe three cancer accounts on Instagram that I never interacted with. I just kind of lurked a little bit because I didn't want, like you were saying, Leia, like my actual community, in my real world where I'm not a cancer person to be seeing me. it's just too vulnerable for me. I'm just too controlled. But now that I'm completely dived in and have the podcast and everything, and I'm, I have two communities now and that's great. but you get so scared that you're gonna come across something that, about your diagnosis in somebody else that's gonna somehow tell you something awful. That's how I felt at least. And so I stayed away, you know, I was so, so triggered by any sort of bad news somebody else might have when I felt like I was already on that roller coaster and so outta control myself that I just would hide. But it is that double edged sword of communities sometimes scary, but, When you're dealing with the scariest thing in the world, but it's

Amy & Stef go through Stef's diagnosis together

Amy 22:25

so beneficial. Mm-hmm.

Steph 22:26

I don't wanna take full credit for Amy getting over that, but I do think that, you know, Amy was my cancer busty as I was getting diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer. You know, like she was getting that in real time. It was like I initially thought that I had stage two. She was helping me process that. And then it became apparent that I was actually stage four and I had bone mets and you know, she was getting a front row seat to the horror of getting diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. And I think, like, obviously I don't wish for people to go through that with their friends. I wish I could have shielded her from it a little bit more, but of course I was way too much in my own head about it. But I do think there's something to be said for. Seeing that it's not an immediate death sentence, you're still a full whole person with like a rich life, and this is just a thing that's happening to you. And I'm okay. You know, I'm, I'm still here. Treatment is working, everything's right. And you know, I don't know how much Amy that really affected you. We've actually never talked about this. I think that's really weird. Well,

Amy 23:37

I will tell you, I do think it was really good for me. your metastatic diagnosis was really good for No, no, no. But

Steph 23:45

really helped you grow as a

Amy 23:46

person. Well, I'll tell you one thing. So my diagnosis was stage two B at a really two big tumors actually, that were not in my lymph nodes. But I think that I became so afraid that I was going to become metastatic and that this rollercoaster was gonna kind of keep going. And, and one of my fears is that if that were to happen to me, I was afraid that people would like always, Only see the cancer and that I would never, ever get to be Amy, the party throwing events, pl, you know, like the person who is just social. And that's why people like her, not the cancer person, the can, you know? And Steph, when you were diagnosed, I had already fallen in love with you and I was already just there for whatever, you know? And like seeing how nothing did change with me to you, like I didn't suddenly, you know what I mean? It's like, of course I think about it all the time and I hate that this has happened to you and it's a real thing, but it doesn't do anything of me wanting to back away from you because I'm afraid that I'm gonna be sad if things, you know, like it's not, fear doesn't matter for me. Like my love matters to me for you. And I think like realizing that other people could feel that way for me, if that comes down to it did release my fear a little bit.

Steph 25:03

Yeah, I think that's something that we've talked about on our podcast too, is like the privilege of getting to walk alongside somebody as they're going through this. Is a big part of it. It's not just like charity when you're helping somebody out or in the support group. When somebody's got it worse off than you and you're like commiserating with them, you're not doing them a favor necessarily. You know, it's, it's a two way street and I think that it's really cool to have an inside look into the most horrible parts of somebody's life. Amy and I, Amy actually coined this phrase that I love, and I want us to title our book this because it's so perfect to me. But Amy was like, I'm the best part of the worst part of your life. I said it at

Amy 25:50

first in a really sad way where I was like, I'm the best part of the worst part of her life. And then I was like, Wait, I'm the best part of the worst part of her life. Like what an honor. You

Steph 25:59

know? Yeah. And I think that like, I don't wanna be a bright sider or whatever, because that's so annoying, but. You know, of all the crappy, crummy things that cancer brings to your life and they are like enumerable obviously. I think that having a different perspective is just really, really cool and having a different kind of community is also really, really cool.

Tina 26:22

This

You are more than your diagnosis

Tina 26:23

speaks to a challenge that I think anyone with a diagnosis of cancer has, and that is bringing that to their community and having people treat you differently. Having people who know you see that before they see you, and whether you're going through treatment or you've gone through treatment or whatever, whatever state you're in, having people treat you differently is the fear of a lot of patients when I talk to them and, and how people deal with that is so, I mean, the spectrum is huge as far as, you know, either not telling people, I've had people not tell their entire family, like they didn't tell their immediate relatives that they had cancer. Absolutely, because. They didn't wanna share it. They don't wanna be that person. They don't want, whatever their preconceptions were, they didn't, That was their choice. So it's, it's from my spot, I'm a clinician and I feel like my job is to hold the space for the experience that someone is having at any given moment. It's not for me to say what's right or wrong. It's not for me to judge in any way, shape or form, cuz who am I to say? So to me it's, it's a fascinating concept that cancer is this very different condition from anything else we talk about in our current society. Right? Yeah. It's the big sea. It's so unique and, and comes with so much psychology wrapped around it. Yeah, just, teasing it apart. I can see why, support groups and even your Facebook group creating an insular group where there is no one inside it who doesn't understand being there. Makes a lot of sense. I also would love for the teaching aspect of that. Like what would be the most appropriate exchange for someone who first hears that you had a diagnosis? Because we know all the inappropriate reactions. Yeah. a whole episode. I was gonna say there's, there's dozens and dozens of them. there is a nonprofit called B, the letter B dash present, and it's for people to support young people who have been diagnosed with cancer and how to go about that. And it's called Be Present because it's specifically for people who are their loved ones or their peers who don't have any cancer diagnosis or any knowledge of. or having known someone who with a cancer diagnosis, cuz they're young.

How should people react to your diagnosis?

Tina 28:39

Yeah. Give me some scenarios where there was a good reaction you know, as a learning moment.

Steph 28:45

I think that with cancer, a lot of people there, there are like a few pretty typical responses that are wrong. And one of them is like, they don't want your gre gry, you know, it's like they act like, if they, if they look at your cancer straight on, make eye contact with it, like it's gonna come for them next And so they don't, they don't wanna talk about it, they just kind of dance around it and obliquely ask if you're okay, that's not cool. Mm-hmm. And then there's also the, the pity response, which is such a bummer, but. I have a really close friend that I have known since we were kids. We were in high school and he's not on social media at all. So like that cuts down on our interaction. But he came up to visit and we went to a concert together a couple of months ago and he. Was like, So gimme the update, you know, what's going on? And I told him, you know, kind of what my last scan results were like. And he listened. He didn't interrupt me. And then when, the conversation came to a natural pause where I'd kind of given him the skinny, he was like, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry for me. Like, I'm just so mad about this, that this is happening to you. And, he gave me a hug and he was like, So what's next for you in your treatment? You know, he asked a follow up question and it wasn't like, Okay, now that part of the conversation's over, we can move on to, to real life now. And I think that that's also what a lot of people do is they act like they're gonna catch you on the flip side. Like they can just ignore you for a while and, and then when you're healthy again, they'll pick their relationship back up with you. But it's, it's, we're not scary, you know, like mm-hmm. I, it's not like you get a standard issue like head scarf and wheelchair and you're just like, feeble. Totally different person all of a sudden. I don't know, Amy, you, you went through it, you were somebody who did have that chunk of your life be cancer. How did people do it right for you and you were like visibly ill?

Amy 30:47

I think before cancer, I was somebody who thought, Oh, if somebody's, brother dies, I don't wanna be like, Hey, I heard your brother died. I'm so sorry. And then make them think about their brother dying and then put them on the spot and make them feel emotional in front of me when they might be caught off guard. But once I actually went through something and had the experience of the big thing that people don't know how to discuss, I realized when people don't bring it up, it is already all I'm thinking about. Right? And so by not. Just saying the thing that's already real, like, yes, the brother is dead. That's the thing that just happened. Why are you not acknowledging it? It's weird or not to, right? I remember just, gosh, maybe a week and a half after being diagnosed, when I told my closest friends and a few of my girlfriends who probably aren't listening to this, but if you aren't, I'm not mad They were like, Let's all just go to dinner. You know, like, let's just go. Um, and we did, and I knew they were all getting together to be a support for me, you know? And so we went to this place and I just remember sitting there as we were all sitting down and getting settled and chatting and looking at menus and like nobody acknowledged. Anything about me and the diagnosis or like, there wasn't even just like a reach across the table to my arm and be like, Hey. Or like, Oh, it's so good to see you. Or like, I can't wait to talk about, or just something. It was just like five or six minutes of like chatting

Steph 32:13

about like, should we get apps? Yeah.

Amy 32:16

Or like, Oh my, you know, my husband has this thing tomorrow so I have to wake up. You know, like small talk, small talk. Let's not make it awkward. Let's fill the space. And I was sitting there being like, I have cancer, I have cancer, I have cancer, I'm gonna have chemo, I'm gonna have this. I'm freaking, you know, and I just wanted to scream or just like, I was like, So do I need to be the one to be like, So yeah, I went to my oncologist for the first time, you know, like, so that's more work for me to then bring this thing out. But it was surprising to me cuz I thought in that situation, I would've been like, Thank you for not putting me on the spot about this terrible thing going on. You know? So I was surprised by my own way of being in the world with it where, because it was like, this is happening whether I like it or not, this is real. And so like, there's not, there's nothing that we can polite our way around or dis

Steph 33:09

awkward or

Amy 33:10

around to make it, uh, better. But some things that did really help though were people just offering things that did not put me in a situation where I had to ask. Yeah. Like

Steph 33:21

what? um,

Amy 33:22

there's a difference between, hey, if you ever want me to go grocery shopping for you, I'm really happy to go. I go once or twice a week anyway. It's no problem. Just let me know what groceries you need. There's no chance in hell I'm gonna call that person and be like, When are you gonna the grocery store next? Even though I know they mean it. I just don't have the time to ask people for favors and it becomes a situation where I'm asking for the favor. If you call me and say, Hey, I'm at Trader Joe's right now, and I'm actually have to go by your house when I leave. Do you want me to pick you up? Anything on the way? It's seriously no big deal. I'll be like, Yeah, peanut

Steph 33:53

butter pretzels, or like, Give me your grocery list. Yeah. Like I'm going

Amy 33:57

now do this. Don't make it be a thing where like, if you ever want a pizza, just let me know. Like I'm never gonna call you and say I want a pizza. Just say, I'm ordering pizza for you. What kind do you want? Is tonight good or do you want it tomorrow? You know, another friend said, I'm sending a house cleaner to your house. That was like one of the coolest things somebody could have done for me. I had like a really young, like kid barely over one at the time and like just to alleviate something like that, it was so generous and,

Steph 34:24

and also like that, that's the solution for if you're somebody that doesn't know what to say, if you're somebody that's not gonna be like, A shoulder to cry on necessarily. And that's fine. Like, not everybody is like that. Play to your strengths. Be the person that's like, I'm at Trader Joe's. Send me your grocery list. Share a note with me and I'll get everything. See you later. Don't even have to answer the door. Right. Enjoy. You know, like that's, that's fine. And we don't expect everybody to be these like, flowing wells of empathy where they're gonna say all the right things and do all the right things. But even going so far as just to say like, This is freaking me out. I don't really know how to deal with it. Like, I'm scared for you. It's really horrible. Like, ugh. Yeah. You know, like that's how we're feeling too. And so it's, it's okay. I think just again, like being authentic with people and being honest about your limitations as a friend or a family member. Like we understand because we don't suddenly have all the answers, but it just, I think is so difficult when you're put in the position as the cancer person to like manage people's emotions about it. And like Amy said, ask for the favors. Like, we're not gonna do that. Nobody's gonna do that. Mm-hmm.

Amy 35:42

also as a cancer person, you, I do think we have to have a little bit of, um, understanding and grace for people for messing up because it is a minefield. People do the wrong thing, say the wrong thing all the time, and if we really do nitpick every little thing and get offended, we're gonna be even more mad than we should be. So I try to let things roll off my back and I try to understand that nobody quite, you know, these are uncharted waters for many people and they're dealing with people like Tina. You were saying earlier, the psychology behind everyone. Cancer experience. I was actually thinking today, if you were somebody who had a hard life and bad things just happened to you and you've just like kind of get the short end of the stick frequently and then you get a cancer diagnosis, your reaction might be, of course this happened to me. And anything that goes along with your, Oh, now I need chemo. Of course I need chemo. I don't just get, have this type of treatment. You know? Whereas if you're somebody who always have had just luck, luck, luck, and you know, you kind of were born into some easier demographics perhaps, and you might feel entitled to that luck cuz it's all you've ever known or to even think it's luck or just what you are and nothing bad happens and things get taken care of and work out in the end. And then suddenly you get cancer. Holy cow. That completely puts you in this tornado where you don't even know what's. And then suddenly the learning curve of like, there's no chance I'll ever get cancer cuz I'm me. And that just doesn't happen to me to having cancer. And suddenly your entire world is like, of course now I'm this cancer per like, this happens to me and now I'm gonna die. Now that you know, like you kind of don't know where to get off. Where you're like, I don't know. It's like for every single person it's so different, but all we know is it's not fun. no matter who you are,

Tina 37:36

Well, I've been doing cancer care since 2000 or so, and so I know it from an a clinical perspective and academic perspective. And certainly I've known thousands of patients and some of whom I've gotten to know in their entire families. And so I've been there. Of course it's, it's been in my family as well, you know, so my father had cancer, so I know it from a, an outside perspective and I ask you that question kind of on purpose because. It doesn't scare me and I'm a clinician. So Yeah. What I think I hear both of you saying, and I think would be useful for people to remember, is to let their own ego go in that moment and just be present. Mm-hmm. for the person and be present to receive the information, but don't put it through their own filter and say, Oh yeah. This is what cancer means in my world. So let me bring that back to you, Mm-hmm. Right, Exactly. And make sure that's a relevant point in our conversation. Right. I guess it's not just let, let your own self go for a moment and just listen to who's to your friend or your loved one mm-hmm. and know that that's, that's all that really you have to do at that moment of, of discovery, I guess. Yeah. Is and that's, that's the big moment. I think that's when people kind of panic and they put it through the filter and they say something stupid. Yeah. Because they wanna say something

Steph 38:50

Yeah. I think that it goes even to clinicians too. I mean, when I was waiting for the results of my PET scan and bone scans that were diagnosing me with metastatic disease, um, my oncologist called me and it was, uh, like, I don't know, eight o'clock at night and I had just met this woman, you know, but I could tell she's like kind of my age. And obviously, you know, we probably just demographically have some similarities. she had obviously been given the assignment to break this horrible news to somebody over the phone and she was like, Your case is a really hard one for me. We have kids the same age. I feel like we're at similar places in our lives. I want you to know that I'm taking this personally, like I care about you as a person. And that to me was so important. It was the best thing that she could have done. Reach across all of her professional guidelines. Grab my hand virtually as a person, as just another human in the world, going through a shitty thing and say, I see you, I see your humanity and I'm gonna do my best for you. And. I have carried that with me. She's still my oncologist. She's a wonderful part of my life. But, you know, I think that that's the thing is like, you don't have to have all the answers. Whether you're somebody like I am who is like a classic fixer, you know, I want to have like a great idea that you haven't thought of yet. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants to hear your great idea about their cancer. Nobody wants your recommendations. They just want to be seen as a person. Mm-hmm.

Leah 40:39

Mm-hmm.

Getting a second opinion. Worth it?

Leah 40:48

So I know that we had talked about, discussing, I don't wanna say tips and tricks or whatever, like of navigating. The system. And that could be like its own show. I mean that's truly, it's, you know, that could be like its own podcast. Were there things that you discovered throughout all of this that you're like, Wow, I wish someone had told me that in

Amy 41:12

advance? I mean, I think we can. From like the really big things like getting a second opinion and what that actually entails that I did not understand when I was being diagnosed. To the tiniest little details like Steph has learned from certain Mets online groups that she's a part of that the target brand. Imodium is generic brand is better for diarrhea control than the

Steph 41:43

name brand. Than the brand. Really?

Amy 41:45

Yeah. But then I guess it stops working eventually for people oftentimes, but Right. That's like a tip. Everyone's like, Oh yeah, that's the kind I get. Oh

Steph 41:52

yeah. Yeah. They're smaller pills. Hot tip. There you go. But along

Amy 41:57

the hot tip, along the lines of second opinions though, that's something I thought you'd do if you don't like your doctor or if something seems fishy about like what they're diagnosing or what they think is going on. and I loved my oncologist. I was like, Great. you know, my doctor, my general doctor had said she's who I would go to. She's great. And then I met her and I was like, Yes, Science Seal delivered. Um, and then she recommended the surgeon for me. My oncologist did. So I said, Great. Um, I had made an appointment for another surgical appointment with somebody else and I loved my first surgeon so much that I just canceled the second appointment. And, Later, someone was like, Well, you should still go just to talk. And I was like, No, no, no. I really love this surgeon, but I didn't realize every single second opinion does not mean you're dumping your oncologist, does not mean you're dumping your surgeon. It is just more information and when you're processing a diagnosis or a new part of treatment, even to hear it explain to you in a different way. can help you so much. Like perhaps that other surgeon would've, I mean, I might have just liked her just as much, first of all, who knows? But she could have used some metaphor that explained something better or explained something about my particular disease or the genetics of my tumor that perhaps no one else had told me yet. And I think if you hear the exact same recommendation that your chosen team is telling you, This person's echoing it. It just gives you so much confidence later on. And here I am almost, what, two and a half years out from the treatment stuff thinking, Should I have done this part of my surgery? Should I have just gotten the mastectomy? Or like, should I have, you know, stuff that I think is fine? But had I had that echoed to me, perhaps there would just be no question. And I think that that's, that's really valuable. And I, I don't know, I think people are afraid to hurt their oncologist's feelings, perhaps, but they don't care. There's no feelings. They expect it. Your insurance wants you to do it because your insurance is gonna save money in the end if you get the best care. So there's really no downside. And also, if you don't jive with your doctors originally, break up, get the second opinion. Find a team you like. Cause whether you like it or not, It's gonna be a long relationship. Yeah. Aim. Amen to

44:22

that.

Leah 44:22

Yeah. I, I've heard patients who have come for second opinions say, I didn't understand my stage, I didn't understand the treatment options until Dr. Soandso explained it. And yeah, just having those, it could be the, like you're saying, the exact same treatment plan that's being discussed, but just one person is able to relate more to the patient where they are and explain things. It's huge. And that can get somebody to actually change where they're gonna treat because they wanna treat with the doctor who can speak to them directly, you

Amy 44:59

know? And it might be a doctor who's way more into the most up to date studies and clinical trials and different things than they. Recommend something that you then do take back to your original person who might agree with them. you know? Yeah. There's nothing, no downside to more info from a professional who specializes in your type of

Tina 45:18

cancer. I think that's key, Amy. I think if you're gonna get a second opinion, you don't go down the hallway at the same cancer center, right? Right. You go to a, what we call a high volume clinic so that it's usually a larger city, someone who does whatever cancer, someone has that cancer all day long. You, you know, you could have multiple myeloma, which is not a really common cancer, but there are doctors who, that is all they see and they will always know more than anyone in a, in a community clinic. And what's amazing, and I don't think people realize this is medical oncologists in community clinics are very aware that there are specialists doing a certain cancer all day long in the big cities or academic centers. They're perfectly fine letting that other specialists create. The treatment plan and executing that plan locally and working with them hand in hand. And so they might call the shots, but it's being actually done in the community clinic near down the road from you in your own hometown. That happens all the time. And it's not only Okay, it's expected. I mean, cuz you, if you ask the local oncologist, What would you do if this were your mother, daughter, sister, brother, whatever, they would think to themselves, well sure I'd go to those specialist in the big city. Yeah. Right. And I mean, this is totally normal. And I always tell patients, every patient about second opinions when they're afraid of hurting their own doctors feelings. I tell them that in order to become a medical doctor, they have egos that will stay intact with this. Mm-hmm. this is okay. they can

Steph 46:47

handle it well. Yeah. Cause getting a cancer diagnosis, like going to see your oncologist and it's like big first day of school vibes. Right. You don't wanna. Call attention to yourself. You don't wanna get on their bad side. Yeah. Because like, your life is hanging in the balance. And like, I, I think that we do want so badly to just clinging to this person who's gonna save our lives. But you know, the reality is you can relax a little bit. They're not taking it personally. They're, they're used to it. You're not the first person with this that they've seen hopefully And it could be that they've told you wrong. And if that's the case, then get out of there. I mean, I think that the second opinion saved my life for sure. Um, or at least gave me a lot more time than I would've had. I would've had an unnecessary surgery that would've had really, Uh, disturbing uh, results, I would've woken up to really bad news, and I'm very glad that I went for that second opinion outside of my community clinic. So yeah, highly, highly recommend second, third opinions, but also knowing that something I heard from, I, I do a lot of webinars because I am that kind of person and something that I heard from O Medger who's like one of the world's leading specialists in lobular breast cancer, which is the type I have. He said he gets a lot of referrals for second opinions. He was like, Of course I'm happy to do them. But one thing that I have to always remind people is that I don't know you. Your oncologist sees you, they see your ups and downs, hopefully, that they're, they're able to follow you closely enough that they can tell when you're having a bad day. And he was like, I'm seeing you on this one day. I don't know if you're better than usual, worse than usual, if your pain level is different. And he was like, I just kind of have to take what the patient is telling me. And so I'm gonna base my treatment plans and my recommendations on where you're at in time today. And that doesn't necessarily reflect the whole picture. He has said also that obviously imaging and scans and all of that are a great tool, but how you feel is also a really great tool. It doesn't matter if your scans say that you're in dire straits, if you're feeling overall pretty good, you know, you don't have to necessarily be treated like you're on death store. Um, if you're feeling okay for the moment and Reverse is true also if you are feeling really bad, but your scans say that you shouldn't be, obviously you're gonna wanna treat the person that's feeling really bad to alleviate those symptoms. And so I think finding somebody who's able to see you as the patient, an individual, and not just your blood work and your imaging, um, I think that's, that's something that's really important. Mm-hmm.

Cancer "meme culture"

Steph 49:40

Um, as far as a tip and a trick that I really love, I, I have to give a shout out to cancer meme culture. I think that it's one thing to like be sat down and be like, your neutrophils are low and you have low platelets, and just hearing all of these things coming at you, whether or not you're able to absorb that, I guess depends on you as a person. But there are a lot of cancer meme accounts that are really funny and they give you a lot of. Important information in kind of a sneaky way. Like I was lucky not to learn this from a meme, but from Amy. But anybody who's had an MRI might, um, know this sensation. You feel like you're peeing your pants, your crotch gets very warm when

Leah 50:27

you're getting the

Amy 50:28

contrast, right? Yes. Once it goes through your body. But if they don't warn you and suddenly you're laying in this machine and you feel the sensation like you've just

Steph 50:37

peed somehow, you'll legit feel like you have peed your pants. Like, like how am I

Amy 50:41

gonna get up? What do I have a sweatshirt to tire on my waist? Like, And then you're, if you know, you're like, ah, it's the contrast. Oh, there it's, Yep,

Steph 50:52

It's, it's not true. But there are like memes about this feeling, you know, there's like, when that contrast hits and it's like a meme about your crotch feeling hot. Mm-hmm. and like low neutrophil memes. Like it's, it's a way to make it less scary, less intense, more digestible, I think for regular people.

Amy 51:15

And there's camaraderie there.

Leah 51:17

I was gonna say again, it's that less alone, right? It's like I'm not the only one who experiences this. Like this is a common thing.

Amy 51:24

Yeah.

Leah 51:24

Yeah. So speaking of mri, what music

MRI music?

Leah 51:28

do y'all listen to in the

Steph 51:29

mri? Do you wanna tell them about our list? You have

Leah 51:32

a list that goes, That's the MRI list.

Steph 51:35

Well, we asked our listeners to give us their favorite songs for. Feeling like hyped, kind of, you know, just like getting through. What helped you feel good and what kind of pumped you up when you were going through treatment or even, you know, now still for people who are out of treatment, still going through treatment. What songs are your, like Hype Jams? And they gave us this amazing list. We turned it into a Spotify playlist and so I actually listened to it, which is a break in tradition. I, I listened to it for my last scans, even though previously I had a superstition about listening to the Big Thief song. Not on repeat. Um, the first couple of times my scan texts were like, What? Um, they actually, this is a running joke on the podcast. Always ish. Hear it as big ke who is a rapper. Very different vibe. Um, But I listened to this song over and over and that was what I did. But we have this really great playlist now, um, and it is all different types of music, but it's good. It's really good. I like listening to it. We also have another playlist that's for, um, when you're feeling like you just need a good cry.

Amy 52:53

Mm-hmm. you really wanna lean into the wallowing and, and you know, I think it's good to let it out. Let it out. So we collected all of the saddest Cry songs, so maybe we can give you links to both those playlists for the show notes if you wanna. Absolutely.

Steph 53:08

Yeah.

Tina 53:12

So let's just say you had a magic wand for a day and money's no object. I'll, There's no object. To what you could possibly accomplish. And you could make the perfect place. Obviously if you had a magic wand, you'd get rid of cancer. But let's just assume that's not possible with thisAnd. I'm saying you could make a cancer center to treat cancer in a way that you think would be most ideal. So maybe you win billions of dollars in a lottery or something and you can create this. So what would it look like? Cause of course I'm thinking integrative cancer care. Yeah, but that's me. So what, what would it be from your perspective?

Amy 53:51

Hugely. Integrative cancer care would be very high on my list. I go to a naturopath, an acupuncturist. Do either of you get massage? My insurance doesn't pay for it, but I would put that on the list. Yeah. Mine neither. And it's so unfair.

Leah 54:07

Yeah, they, They won't pay for it unless it's through a physical therapist.

Amy 54:10

Mine used to do it if I paired it with my chiropractor, who I also see actually in the integrative care area.

What supportive treatments would you like adopted?

Amy 54:17

But here's what I would put in my cancer care clinic is a pool, an indoor pool. Yes. Because so many of the side effects that cancer treatment causes and, um, medications, anything, some of our bones feel just sore our joints. if you're like me and you're put into early menopause to combat my estrogen levels and I take an ai, like I just feel like I'm 90 and swimming in a pool, moving your body. We all know that moving our body as much as we can, can lower cancer risk, cancer recurrence, cancer progression, all that stuff. And it's so hard to do it when you just feel like you're 90. So having. I want like old lady aerobics classes in

Steph 55:06

a water pool. It's water aerobic. I want what? Can it be warm water? Yes,

Amy 55:11

it is warm and it is indoors. We don't care about the weather. And

Leah 55:14

everyone can wear the flower

Steph 55:16

hats. Yes, Essential.

Amy 55:20

There's actually a girl in town that I've met, um, through cancer who leads the synchronized swimming group in Portland. I think they're called like the Rose City rain drops or something. Adorable. But they go do and synchronize swimming stuff in their little caps, like in the river and different places and do events. And I am trying to start a breast cancer synchronized swimming group with her, where she can be our coach. That's amazing.

Leah 55:43

That would be awesome from what I've heard, it's also, um, being in the water also can help with people who have lymphedema because of the pressure of the water. You know, there's so much benefit. I

Steph 55:55

love that idea. Okay, so I know some of my things. I attended BAE University and so bae is like, um, heaven on Earth. To me, they have this beautiful cafeteria with all like plant-based foods. They have large gardens, they have a beautiful sunny courtyard and they have housing. I think that there are a lot of things that, you know, Alopathic doctors don't necessarily think about because they're so focused on problem solving, which is wonderful. That's what we pay them for. But I think that integrative stuff that even goes beyond what we think of like acupuncture. Aromatherapy and, you know, herbalism and things like that. Like all of that I think is important. But like Amy said, having a pool, jacuzzi, saunas, because like all of these things I feel like can really make you feel more embodied. Like that's something I've struggled with is, um, feeling kind of like a floating head whose body has betrayed her Mm-hmm. And I don't want to acknowledge my body. I, I am only just now two years in getting to the place where I feel like I can really be back in line kind of, and, and thinking more about my body as something that has value and processes that aren't totally messed up. And the thing that's brought me back to that has been acupuncture, but I think that the feeling that you get when you're at your cancer center is so important. Mm-hmm. I'm really lucky in that mine is a beautiful, bright place with lots of art and um, good snacks and everything, but I think that there's still a lot of room for improvement. Like, you know, green space means so much to people. It brings up your mood and offering dietary help because people need it. There's so much that you have to learn when you're diagnosed with cancer. I have been vegetarian my entire life and so I was like, Yeah, I'm good. Like I don't need a nutritionist. But then, um, my registered dietician for oncology was like, Actually, the way that you're eating is the worst possible way for somebody with chronic diarrhea. Because I had of course, in response to my diagnosis, just started eating like massive amounts of raw vegetables and stuff, and he was like, That's just gonna go right through. Yeah. Like, you're not absorbing any of those nutrients. And so, I think that even people who think they've got it on lock need a lot of help. And, just having a cancer center that offers all of that in addition to obviously like the traditional methods of treating and cur cancer. And then also having places for people to stay because it is such a burden on families and individuals to have to go back and forth. Like, I drive to Seattle every week and you know, like we're on a single income. My husband's a public school teacher, Like sometimes gas money is tight and like, I think it's valuable to go down there for acupuncture every week. And obviously I don't have a choice about my treatment stuff, but I can definitely see people making a choice to skip or forgo those treatments because they can't get there. Mm-hmm. Um, and then when that extends to like radiation and stuff, you have poorer outcomes and that sucks. So. Just, you know, having that place where people wanna be and they wanna feel safe and they feel open and they feel cared for as a whole person, not just like this glob of junk in your body you're trying to get rid of.

Amy 59:31

Mm-hmm. Can I say I have another one that I actually, this is a prediction and also what would be on my list, but I think that within five years this will be something they offer in, the infusion rooms. Virtual reality headsets when you're getting an infusion. I have one of those Oculus quest things or whatever. And immediately when I started using it, I thought, why didn't I have this during childbirth to like, let me escape, guide me through breathing, cool idea, relax me envision with like actual things that I'm seeing, like the baby lowering and stuff like that. So first of all, get that into labor and delivery rooms as soon as possible. Um, but also just to being in the infusion room, getting chemo is surreal. And what's even more surreal about it is you get used to it and like, it's like how do you get used of this? Um, but to have that escape where you can put on a movie that makes it look like you're in a movie theater. You could do a meditation where you're in a rainforest with calm music and you're seeing nice things. I don't know. There's clearly probably no sides to this, but I could assume that feeling lower stress while you're in treatment situations would maybe lower the ptsd, like medical trauma that we get going through treatment. Um, I don't know. I think it's just like a cool escape and you don't have to go anywhere. we, we could like start a nonprofit that brings headsets in. Cancer centers,

Tina 1:01:03

I like the virtual reality angle. I think it's already being used in medicine is already being researched for pain control and other things. So, yeah,

Steph 1:01:10

Covid has taken away so much of the possibility I think of cancer centers and hospitals in general, cuz it's just like so sterile. And obviously we want hospitals to be sterile, but our cafeteria at Seattle Cancer Care Alliance is like, so separated and they only have one dish available and you have to like serve it up yourself. it's just very, like, don't look at anybody, don't breathe on anybody. And you know, I hope that maybe as we kind of get things under control as far as that goes, we can move back toward like, looking people in the face at cancer centers and having support groups come back in person and stuff like that. Cause I was on a wait list for =acupuncture for a year and a half because they had to abide by these like really strict covid protocols because it could be like blood, you know, in. Exam rooms where they do the acupuncture. And so they were only seeing like three people a day and they had this waiting list a mile long. and not any old acupuncturist can take care of oncology patients and so you know, it would just be great if that were an option for more people because it's really, really helped me and Amy too.

Leah 1:02:25

I refer people all the time to acupuncture. I'll just go down their list of side effects and I'll be like, Well, it helps with this one and this one and this one and this one. You sure you don't wanna try it?

Amy 1:02:34

you know? Mm-hmm. it seems like it would be fake, but it's. You know, like you have to do it to believe it. You're like, Oh wow. Like that doesn't hurt anymore. And it did hurt. So how did that work? I don't know, but I'm coming back. It's magic. It's magic. I recently started doing cupping too, like Gweneth Paltrow's best friend.

Leah 1:02:54

So your acupuncturist is doing the cupping? Yeah,

Amy 1:02:57

there's like the kind that they pump mm-hmm. that causes the suction and then there's the kind that just like naturally has a suction and you can move them around and he does the move around kind and then leaves them. And I kind of want that kind cuz the sucking ones that you usually like, put 'em somewhere and, and then they stay. But anyway, it's really, really helped me like. Nothing else has chiropractor, even acupuncture, um, hasn't helped in the same way

Tina 1:03:19

Yeah. And I think that qualifies in one of those things that happens at cancer centers that you have to ask for. They don't always point out and say, Oh, we have an acupuncturist we work with, or mm-hmm. you know, it might not be under the same roof. It might be someone in the community, but I think that's something people can ask about at their cancer center and see who they're working with. Cuz you're right, oncology trained acupuncturists would be best.

Cautions & Contrindications

Amy 1:03:38

I know, cuz there's so many things that seem like no problem here and then you accidentally happen to. Read a news article on some health website you know, like collagen for example. Remember when I was freaking out about Right. How I was told to take collagen, but then I somehow stumbled upon that. It might actually not be great. You guys did a whole episode on this. Yeah. But for cancer patients, if you're just going to anybody off the street and they're like, use, uh, weed for sleep and then you're like, for your specific type of cancer, maybe that specific type of THC isn't good for you to be,

Steph 1:04:13

or it's contraindicated with your medication. Right, Right. Yeah. And like when I, when I saw my dietician, he was like, you know, the name of the game here is getting you to retain as much of the medication as you can. So if that means changing your diet, so it's primarily. Bananas, rice, applesauce, and toast. So you're bound up enough to keep those cancer drugs in you so you can absorb them. Then that's what we're gonna do because you know, having glowing skin doesn't matter. if you're dying of cancer right. All that broccoli

Leah 1:04:45

isn't gonna do you any good.

Steph 1:04:47

Yeah.

Leah 1:04:47

If it's making you poop.

Steph 1:04:48

Yeah. Yeah. I also

Amy 1:04:50

find it really baffling in my own head sometimes thinking about like all of the stuff you're told to do for cancer prevention versus once you have cancer and wanting to either slow that cancer or stop it from coming back. Cuz sometimes those two are the same thing, but sometimes it's like, well, am I already so screwed that. eating organic food isn't as important as just eating the vegetables. Like having the vegetables is more important than like the tiny bit of, you know, quote unquote safe chemicals that are on the broccoli. It's just more important to be eating, you know, like, I don't know. I just like think about all of this stuff that it's like, which part is the prevention and which part is the, once the horses out, out of the gate already, you know,

Steph 1:05:32

Well, my, my dietician very rudely likes to remind me that I can still get other kinds of cancer, which is like, what? Excuse

Amy 1:05:41

me. See, the fact that we can laugh about that is part of what I love about having friends with like cancer experience.

Tina 1:05:50

Laugh. Well, to your point Amy, this is something I harp on all the time cuz I, I do lectures out there to other naturopathic docs and stuff and, and I am adamant about a reassessment of everything after the diagnosis. Cause the process tissue to cancerous tissue is one thing biologically. And then once cancer is present and whether it proliferates, spreads, how it acts, whether it is capable doing that or whether it's dormant and being held in, checked by the immune system, that's a new beginning. And then you look at all the evidence for every agent that you use for prevention and a new light. Cuz it's not just what the agent is, but what dose somebody is taking it at that will affect the biology. So it's a really intriguing question because I think it's something we can. We can somewhat answer, but my pet peeve is when we take things that we know are preventative and extrapolate it into the world of one's cancer has been diagnosed, you cannot extrapolate, It's, it's a hard line, hard stop, reassess. Is it? Okay now? So that's my opinion on it.

Amy 1:06:56

Yeah. Do a whole episode on it. Cuz it's fascinating

Tina 1:06:59

to me. I could, I could do a whole like, coursework on it because it's So do it.

Amy 1:07:05

Yeah, it would be really useful. Honestly. I, I would love it.

Tina 1:07:08

It's, it's one of those things that's, it's tough even for me, I actually reassess every time. Like, okay, that's a good question. B6 in this, in your particular type of cancer, is this okay? Is B12 okay in your particular type of cancer? Because every cancer is named for the organ it comes from, but they're different entities, biologically, they're different. So you have to look at every single one. And you know, prostate's not a breast and a breath's, not colon and colon's not along and et cetera, et cetera.

Steph 1:07:33

and the science is moving so fast that it just would be silly if we weren't constantly reassessing all of these dietary things. And people have access now, like one of the coolest things I think about Twitter and the internet is like, you can go online, you can find the person who worked on this study and you can say, Hey, your study is pay walled. Can you just like send it to me? And they'll send it to you and then you can read about it. And of course that's dangerous if you don't know what you're doing But I also think that it's, it's really valuable for you to be able to be like, Hey, I'm interested in this. And then bring it to your oncologist to be like, Hey, I'm kind of wondering if this might be a supplement that would help me. And they can be like, Absolutely not. I already know about it. Or they can say like, Hey, let's learn about this. I don't know, I'll make some calls. Because you know, like you said before about the ego thing, like I think you have to understand when you're either a cancer person or a cancer provider that like the info is always coming at you, it's always changing. And that works in our favor when we're thinking about survival rates. you know, medicine is always changing. Info is being updated and you have to just understand that like you don't know everything and you don't even know what you don't know because it's always changing and there are always people coming new to discovery and, and new to medications and I don't know, it gives me a lot of.

Tina 1:08:59

I, I'm, I'm smiling because I have a AFR in my head that I don't know where I came upon it or if I just, I sing Songed it one day, but it's, uh, reassess, reassess, Put your ego to the test And live by it. I love it.

Steph 1:09:17

I wish more doctors were like that.

Tina 1:09:19

Mm-hmm. Discovery demands that we have it, right? Yes. You have to. New discoveries can't happen if you already think you know the answers. Right. Right.

Leah 1:09:26

Was there anything else that you, y'all wanted to talk about, to promote or anything before we wrap this up?

Amy 1:09:33

I would just say if you are interested in checking out the podcast, where Anywhere podcast can be found if you just search for cancer for breakfast, and we're on Instagram and Twitter, we have website and you can always write us a letter. We'll read it on the podcast and gab about it. and yeah, we love the Cancer Pod so much. And thank you guys so much for having us. This is so fun.

Leah 1:09:54

Thank you for coming on. I, um, yeah, I could sit here forever. We'll have you on our show. Oh, that'd

Steph 1:10:00

be awesome. I know. What a treat it was so cool to talk to you too. And yeah, we'll just continue on our podcast, Yeah. We'll pick it up

1:10:09

when

Amy 1:10:09

we left off We should have a real cliff hanger. and then, Have the big reveal on, uh, on kids for breakfast,

Tina 1:10:17

Uh, that's a not a bad idea. Yeah. yes, thank you both for, for joining us and taking the time out to be here on the cancer fund. this has been lovely. Thank you. Thank

Amy 1:10:25

you, Thank you.

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:10:27

All right. Well that was a lot of fun.

Leah_cfboutrointerview_riverside 1:10:29

Yeah, no, we could have talked forever.

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:10:31

Yes, we could.

Leah_cfboutrointerview_riverside 1:10:33

the cancer pod for breakfast. It's a mashup. It's like what, what the kids do with the songs. You know, We had a mashup.

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:10:42

Yeah. And I think that, you know, building community around cancer care is so important, and I, I think it's important for everyone involved. I think that, you know, whether you've had cancer or you're a caregiver, finding support and community. It's important and I think that's what they're all about. So, kudos.

Leah_cfboutrointerview_riverside 1:10:58

Absolutely. And as always, if you wanna listen to our podcast, well, you're listening to it right now, obviously, but you can subscribe. You can subscribe anywhere that podcasts are streamed.

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:11:12

I gotta tell you, Leah, for the record, we have people all around the world. 10% of our listeners are in Europe.

Leah_cfboutrointerview_riverside 1:11:16

We're international y.

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:11:18

Lots of people in the United States, cuz that's where we're based. But we have folks in Canada, Australia, Europe. It's kind of cool.

Leah_cfboutrointerview_riverside 1:11:26

Yeah. So share, share this with your friends, your family, people in your support

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:11:30

Speaking of support groups,

Leah_cfboutrointerview_riverside 1:11:31

Yeah. We're, we're keeping a theme here. and you can always buy us a coffee, for those who don't know, there's a link in our show notes and it just kind of helps us keep this going and,

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:11:43

Mm-hmm.

Leah_cfboutrointerview_riverside 1:11:43

I don't know, pays for artists and hopefully one day an editor, we keep saying that.

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:11:49

Yes. We're getting there.

Leah_cfboutrointerview_riverside 1:11:50

Social media people. Yes, we, Yeah. So it'll, it, it keeps the, the content.

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:11:55

Hey, and if you're a social media person who wants to join us and spread the word, or you are an editor of any kind for podcasts, then uh, shout out, send us an email. We're interested. We need to find someone, but we wanna find someone who's interested in what we're doing too. So it'd be a win-win

Leah_cfboutrointerview_riverside 1:12:10

On that note, I'm Dr. Leia Sherman,

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:12:13

and I'm Dr. Tina Kaser.

Leah_cfboutrointerview_riverside 1:12:15

and this is the Cancer Pod.

Tina_cfboutrointerview_riverside.wav 1:12:16

Until next time,

Amy 1:13:01

We should just cut this. Who gives a

1:13:02

That,